'This Week' Transcript 10-19-25: Speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 12, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: Millions turn out for the "No Kings" rallies across America. Peaceful protests that some Republicans call hate America rallies. "THIS WEEK" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Protesters take to the streets across America. The largest display of defiance since Trump returned to the White House.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And they’re referring to me as a king. I'm not a king.

KARL: Some Republicans say it's anti-American. Democrats say it's patriotism.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R) LOUISIANA: We call it the hate America rally.

MINORITY LEADER REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D) NEW YORK: What's hateful is what happened on January 6th.

KARL: As the government remains shut down, soon to be the longest in U.S. history.

MINORITY LEADER SEN. JOHN THUNE (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: Nobody twins in a government shutdown.

MAJORITY LEADER SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D) NEW YORK: Look, we’re not negotiating in public, plain and simple.

KARL: A grand jury indicts another of Trump's critics, former National Security Advisor John Bolton.

TRUMP: And I’m not a fan of John Bolton. I thought he was a sleazebag, actually.

KARL: As President Trump commutes the sentence of convicted fraudster George Santos, saying, quote, “Santos had the courage, conviction, and intelligence to always vote Republican.”

And foreign intervention.

TRUMP: He doesn't want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with the United States.

KARL: How far will the administration take its military actions against Venezuela? How will Congress respond?

All topics for our headliners this morning. House Speaker Mike Johnson and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries join us live.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's "THIS WEEK." Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to "THIS WEEK."

It's day 273 of the Trump presidency. One thousand, one hundred and eighty-nine days left. As we come on the air this morning, we are seeing the collision of two major forces, the largest anti-Trump protest since Donald Trump returned to the White House and a further escalation of the president's campaign of retribution, as he uses the power of the government to target his political opponents and reward his political allies.

John Bolton, a man high on Trump's enemies list, is the latest to be indicted by Trump's Justice Department. And George Santos, a former Republican congressman, the latest Trump ally to be granted clemency and freed from prison.

Millions of Americans took part in the second "No Kings" protest this weekend. Crowds gathering in cities and suburbs across the nation, from New York to Georgia, to Texas and California, and every state in between. According to one preliminary analysis, it may be the largest one-day protest in more than 50 years. Many of the demonstrators came armed with homemade signs protesting what they say are authoritarian actions by the Trump administration. Republican leaders have called some of their messages hateful and un-American.

It all comes amidst a government shutdown set to enter its third week with no end in sight. The Democrats refusing to vote to open the government without an extension to health care subsidies set to expire in December, as premiums for millions of Americans are about to skyrocket without a deal.

We'll speak with House Speaker Mike Johnson and Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries in a moment. A "THIS WEEK" this exclusive.

But we begin with ABC's chief national correspondent Matt Gutman on the streets of Los Angeles as Saturday's protests unfolded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No kings!

CROWD: No kings!

MATT GUTMAN, ABC NEWS CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Nine months into Donald Trump's second term, the largest mass opposition yet unfolding across the country Saturday, with millions marching against what they say is a president acting like a king.

BILL NYE, SCIENCE EDUCATOR AND TV PRESENTER: No thrones, no crowns, no kings!

GUTMAN (voice over): Protesters flooding the streets of an estimated 2,500 cities and towns nationwide, turning out in red states and blue.

GUTMAN: Protesters here in Hollywood have taken over most of the street corners in this area. You can also see across the way. And that's how it is in hundreds and hundreds of locations across the country. The mood for the most part is playful at times. But what we haven't seen in the vast majority of these locations is even a whiff of violence.

In Ohio, hundreds gathering on the lawn of the statehouse. And in dark red, St. Augustine, Florida, throngs of protesters equipped with homemade signs and American flags.

And likely the single largest protest in President Trump's backyard in the nation's capital.

CHRISTIANE CORDERO, ABC NEWS: Tens of thousands of people have lined Pennsylvania Avenue as part of the "No Kings" protest here in D.C., taking place just blocks away from the White House. While Trump is in Florida this weekend, several Democratic senators have joined protesters as the party searches for a consistent message to combat the president's second term agenda.

GUTMAN (voice over): Republicans had tried to portray the protests as hate America rallies.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R) LOUISIANA: You’re going to bring together the Marxists, the socialists, the Antifa advocates, the anarchists, and the pro-Hamas wing of the far-left Democrat Party.

GUTMAN (voice over): But that has drawn a sharp rebuke from Senator Bernie Sanders.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: Millions of Americans are coming out today, not because they hate America, we're here because we love America.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Our thanks to Matt Gutman.

I’m joined now by the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, right here in the studio.

Speaker Johnson, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R) LOUISIANA: Glad to be with you. Thanks.

KARL: So, let’s start with the No Kings rallies. You called these hate America rallies. What do you mean by that?

JOHNSON: Well, that collection of folks that I listed were certainly part of it. We congratulate them on an apparently violent-free, free speech exercise. I was a First Amendment lawyer for 20 years. We defend that right.

But the irony of the message is pretty clear for everyone. If President Trump was a king, the government would be open right now. If President Trump was a king, they would not have been able to engage in that free speech exercise out on The Mall, by the way, which was open because President Trump hasn't closed it. In the last shutdown, 2013 era, President Obama closed The National Mall, closed all the national parks, didn't allow people to engage in all this.

So, I mean, it’s -- they needed a stunt. They needed a show. Chuck Schumer has -- needs cover right now. He’s closed the government down because he needs political cover, and this was a part of it.

KARL: And we’ll get to the shutdown. But just on this notion that these are hate America rallies. And you not only talked about anarchists, Antifa advocates, pro-Hamas wing. And you said this is the modern Democratic Party.

But I remember not that long ago what you said after the -- the murder of Charlie Kirk, when you said that we should view fellow Americans not as our enemies but -- but as our fellow countrymen.

JOHNSON: Yes. I’ve never called anybody an enemy. But we call out --

KARL: Hate America rally or, you know, Antifa, pro-Hamas, that sounds -- those are enemies.

JOHNSON: Well, there were a lot of hateful messages yesterday. I mean, we have video and photos of pretty violent rhetoric, calling out the president, saying fascists must die and all the rest. I mean, I don't think that's loving speech. I don’t think that’s friendly speech. And I don’t think it’s pro-American to say those kinds of things.

So, it's not about the people, it's about the message. It's about the ideology. And I will stand here every Sunday and talk with you about the dangers of Marxism and socialism and how it’s led to the -- the literal death of tens of millions of people in the 20th century alone. It is a dangerous ideology, and it is anti-American. It goes against everything that we stand for.

KARL: But you’re not saying this is all of the Democratic Party. It’s not all of the people that were out there. I mean, it kind of reminds me of what Hillary Clinton said, referred to Trump supporters, or half of them, as the “basket of the deplorables.”

JOHNSON: I’ve never said that. I never called out -- I never said it was the whole Democratic Party. But you and I have to acknowledge the reality --

KARL: Well, the --

JOHNSON: Wait a minute.

KARL: So, this is the modern Democratic Party.

JOHNSON: It is. Because look at the evidence. Look at what’s happening in New York. They’re about to elect an open socialist Marxist as the mayor of America’s largest city. There’s a rise of Marxism in the Democratic Party. It’s an objective fact. And no one can deny it.

We lament that. We decry it. We’re trying to call it out because I want to make sure the next generation of Americans understands, that is a dangerous road to go down. That's part of our -- our calling. I think part of our responsibility as -- as elected servants of the people.

KARL: So, let's get to the shutdown. You’ve blamed the Democrats. And -- and to be clear, you did pass a so-called clear, clean --

JOHNSON: No so-called. Totally clean.

KARL: You know -- keep the government funded for seven months. They refused to vote for that, most of them, because they want to hold out for, you know, for the Obamacare subsidies --

JOHNSON: Well, no, they flied it -- we filed a clean CR, 24-pages in length to keep the lights on.

KARL: Yes.

JOHNSON: They filed a dirty CR. What’s in it? They want to reinstate free health care, paid for by taxpayers, to illegal aliens. That’s $200 billion as part of it. They want to -- they want to give money back to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. They want to take a half a billion dollars from rural hospitals, and they want to engage in all sorts of spending on foreign projects around the globe. That’s --

KARL: So --

JOHNSON: That is actually on paper. That’s their kind of proposal. We can't do that.

KARL: OK, so -- so, the Democrats did not vote for the clean funding bill. They have chosen to shut the government down to fight for the health care and the other items you mentioned.

But let me ask you, why, as this is going on, why is the House not in session?

JOHNSON: Well, first of all, we’re fighting for health care as well. Not just in word, but in deed. We put it in the one big, beautiful bill, the working families tax cut, real reforms to Medicaid to make it work better to preserve the program because we had illegal aliens receiving benefits, we had young able-bodied men who were not working. They don’t have dependents. They were riding the wagon. We clean that up in our bill.

In their counterproposal, what Chuck Schumer is arguing for -- is he wants to reverse those reforms, which would be a terrible policy decision for the people.

KARL: But I'm actually asking a different question. I said, why is the House not in session?

I mean, I covered day-to-day those previous shutdowns, including the one you mentioned in 2013. I recall there were House hearings during that shutdown about how President Obama was handling the shutdown.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

KARL: Why is the House not in session? That's --

JOHNSON: The House did its job. It’s exactly a month ago today, on September 19th, we passed the clean resolution.

The continued resolution would keep the lights on, keep the government working for the people. By the way, keep Border Patrol agents paid, our troops paid, you know, air traffic controllers, all the rest, all the services that go to veterans and young women who need nutrition assistance for the infants.

The Democrats, every single one of them have now voted 11 times, except for three Democrats in the Senate. They voted 11 times to shut down the government and cease and halt all of those services and programs.

KARL: But I'm still understanding why is the House not in session? You passed a seven-week temporary funding bill. Is that the entirety of the Republican agenda? Why are you --

JOHNSON: No, it is not. No, it is not. But I refuse to allow us to come back and engage in anything until the government's reopened, when the Democrats do the right thing for the people. They're playing politics, and we have to use every ounce of leverage we have to make sure they do the right thing.

They have literally chosen -- this is a true statement. You think about it. Look at their votes and their actions. They have chosen restoring benefits by taxpayers to illegal aliens over paying our troops and our border patrol agents and TSA, and all the rest.

It's --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: I mean, as you know, neither Medicaid nor the Obamacare subsidies can go to undocumented --

JOHNSON: You know why? Because we got it signed into law July 4th.

KARL: OK --

JOHNSON: And they're trying to repeal it, Jonathan. That's the whole point. It’s the whole point.

KARL: But you were doing this seven-week extension to give you time to pass funding for the rest of the year.

JOHNSON: That's right. That’s right.

KARL: Why aren't you working on that now?

JOHNSON: We are working on that. We don't have to be on the House floor to do it.

KARL: I mean (ph) --

JOHNSON: Our appropriators are working around the clock. They have been. They're negotiating not just in our party, but across the aisle to get the next batch of appropriations bills ready to go.

It's a great point. All we did was a simple C.R. There's not a single Republican policy --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: But there are no -- but there are no committee hearings on these -- on these budget bills. There are no votes on these budget bills --

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: Now, it’s very important. Very important. The House has already passed the 12 appropriations bills through committee. They don't need a committee hearing to do that. We need to get them off the floor.

But it's been stopped by the Democrats in the Senate. And why? Because Chuck Schumer is afraid that one of these Marxists is going to run against him in his next re-elect, and he has to get political cover.

When he did the right thing in March and he voted for the nearly identical C.R., he took massive heat from the far left. Many of the groups that are out there protesting yesterday, he can't face them again. This is plainly and simply a selfish decision on his part.

KARL: There's also no oversight going on. No oversight hearings. I want to ask --

JOHNSON: Oh, there's -- wait. There is oversight going on.

KARL: Well, there are no committee hearings going on. There's no --

JOHNSON: Jonathan, just two days ago on Friday --

KARL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: -- the House Oversight Committee released the third batch of Epstein files.

KARL: Yeah, this is --

JOHNSON: The documents from the Epstein estate that includes, by the way, his personal phone logs, his travel logs, his financial documents, and even his daily calendar. That stuff is happening right now. We don't need to be on the House floor to do that.

KARL: So, Steve Bannon likened the Congress to the Russian Duma, which, of course, is just a rubber stamp for Vladimir Putin. How do you respond to that?

JOHNSON: I think this is an absurd notion. We have unified government. The American people put Republicans in charge of the White House, the Senate, and the House. We are delivering for the people.

You can make an argument, the first nine months of this Congress and this administration were the most successful, productive in history.

We -- think of it. Think of the split screen what's happening right now. President Trump and Republicans reduced taxes, reduced regulations to get the economy going again, ended the -- ending the crime crisis, ended the border crisis.

He's resolving wars and conflicts around the globe.

What have Democrats done? They shut the government down.

KARL: But oversight, I mean, I never really hear you raise critical questions of anything that President Trump is doing. Do you, at least in private, raise issues with --

JOHNSON: Yes. This is what -- this is what -- this is what unified government looks like. The president and I --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: A unified government means all in lock step -- I mean, Congress is still a check on the -- on the executive branch.

JOHNSON: Congress is more than a check on the executive branch. We're the Article One body in the Constitution.

KARL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: We have a preeminent responsibility. And I take that seriously. A lifelong constitutional attorney and somebody who's been a zealous advocate of it.

The president and I talked all the time about policies and decisions and all of that. We do that behind closed doors because that's what party leaders do when you're in the same party. It's called unified government.

The reason we've been so productive is because we do that so well, and we're delivering for the American people.

KARL: When are you going to swear in Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva?

JOHNSON: As soon as we get back to legislative session, when Chuck Schumer allows us to turn the lights back on.

KARL: Why haven't you done it already?

JOHNSON: Because this is the way the institution works. To -- I'm following the Pelosi precedent, by the way. When my dear friend from Louisiana, Julia Letlow, was elected to fill the seat of her deceased husband because of COVID, Nancy Pelosi took days to swear her in. By the way --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Are you saying -- let me stop you. Are you saying that Nancy Pelosi refused to swear her in earlier?

JOHNSON: No, I'm saying -- that’s -- my very point is, this is the normal process --

KARL: Because my understanding is that was the date that actually the representative-elect, Letlow (ph), at the time requested. That she had obviously -- her -- her --

JOHNSON: No. OK, here’s some more examples, OK.

KARL: No, no, but wait a minute, you mentioned the Pelosi precedent. But Pelosi didn't delay that. She -- she gave the date that --

JOHNSON: No, no, let me give you more of the Pelosi precedent, OK?

KARL: And what about the Johnson precedent? I mean, you swore in two Republicans the day after their election (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNSON: I'm happy to answer. I’m happy to answer.

KARL: OK.

JOHNSON: Pelosi precedent. Pat Ryan, Joe Sempolinski. They were elected during an August recess. So, 21 days later, when the House returned to regular legislative session, they were administered the oath. That’s what we’re doing. We’re not in session right now. Rep. Grijalva was elected after the House was out of success. As soon as we return to legislative session, as soon as the Democrats decide to turn the lights back on so we can all get back here, I will administer the oath of --

KARL: You could swear her in tomorrow, right? I mean --

JOHNSON: No, not tomorrow. No, we -- we couldn't. We wouldn't. There was an exception for two Floridians earlier in this Congress.

KARL: Yes.

JOHNSON: But the reason was, they were duly elected. They had a date set. They flew in all their friends and family and the House went out of session unexpectedly.

KARL: So -- so, if she flies in friends and family, then you would --

JOHNSON: We don't have a date set. She was elected after we went out of session.

KARL: OK. OK.

Let me ask you about the president's pardon of George Santos. What do you make of that?

JOHNSON: The president has the right under the Constitution for pardon and commutation, of course.

KARL: For sure.

JOHNSON: We believe in redemption. This is a personal belief of mine. And -- and I -- you know, I hope Mr. Santos makes the most of his second chance. I mean --

KARL: But how about the fact that the president, in issuing the pardon, or it’s clemency, I'm sorry, the clemency, he said, “at least Santos had the courage, conviction, and intelligence to always vote Republican.”

I looked through this. There have now, I think, we have a -- a list of them, ten former Republican members of Congress who the president has either pardoned or issued clemency for. Ten.

JOHNSON: OK, you want to talk about what Joe Biden did with that power?

KARL: No, I want to talk about what --

JOHNSON: He pardoned his own family. The only thing he signed, by the way, with his own pen. Everything else was autopen.

KARL: Yes, but --

JOHNSON: But categories of hardened criminals that they just released from prison. At least President Trump is fully transparent. He goes out and explains his rational to the --

KARL: Is it OK for him to say the -- essentially I'm pardoning somebody because they always had the courage --

JOHNSON: That's not the reason he pardoned him.

KARL: Conviction and intelligence to always vote Republican. I mean, he said that.

JOHNSON: That's one statement (ph) of what he said among many things about George Santos and other --

KARL: But should that be a factor in pardoning somebody, that they voted Republican, or clemency?

JOHNSON: No, and I don't think it -- I don’t think it was. No, I don’t think it was. I just think he’s talking about this individual and -- and his past. And at least he’s open and transparent about it. Joe Biden never told us anything. And, frankly, we’re not even sure he knew who he was pardoning on any of those things.

KARL: I -- one of the things that drove a lot of the people out protesting yesterday was what's happening in terms of the mass deportations. I want to play something for you that Joe Rogan recently said how this is being undertaken.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, HOST, “THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE”: The way it looks is horrific. It looks -- it -- when you're just arresting people in front of their kids and just normal regular people that have been here for 20 years --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ROGAN: That -- everybody who has a heart can't get along with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Do you -- do you worry that these ICE raids are going too far, or at least -- or could go too far?

JOHNSON: I think everybody is aware of the optics. But I do believe in the rule of law. And I believe the American people were alarmed that the -- the -- the border was wide open for four years. And by many estimates, as many as 20 million illegal aliens got into the country, many of them hardened, dangerous criminals from --

KARL: But you’re seeing people that have been in the country 20 years or more with -- that have families, you know, that have American citizens as children, as spouses, that are facing, you know, these pretty rough deportations.

JOHNSON: Yes, and no one takes any pleasure in that at all. What ICE has prioritized is the dangerous, hardened criminals first. And there was probably a few million of those, OK? So, they’ve been trying to round them up and send them back home, with great success.

And by the way, the border is totally sealed now. Almost zero illegal crossings over the last four months. Almost zero. Which proves again the point that President Biden could have done that at any time. He did not want to use that authority. They wanted the wide-open border.

So now we all have to deal with the fallout of that. With tens of millions of illegals into the country, ICE has a very difficult job, a very difficult task. And they’re -- they need to be -- they need to be efficacious and efficient in the way they do this. But they have to ensure that we have the rule of law. If you don't have a sovereign border, you don’t have a sovereign country.

KARL: We’re out of time, but I just have to ask you what’s happened at the Pentagon. Do you have a sense for why the secretary of Defense seems to be afraid to interact with journalists who cover him? I mean --

JOHNSON: I reject the premise. There’s nothing -- there’s --

KARL: I mean, the guy -- the guy --

JOHNSON: Far is not part of the secretary of war’s make-up, OK?

KARL: Well, I mean, the guy’s only had two briefings since he was -- became secretary of Defense. And -- and -- and --

JOHNSON: He’s -- he’s -- he’s very transparent.

KARL: And they’ve basically forced the -- the Pentagon press out of the building unless they would agree to -- to -- to sign a pledge that would make it impossible to -- to be independent journalists.

JOHNSON: I -- I can't remember, and I don't think you can either, a secretary of defense who has been so transparent, out in the open, talking about priorities, principles and things.

KARL: Oh, I can. I covered the building and -- and I traveled around the world with secretaries of defense. I interviewed them. I questioned them in the Briefing Room. Other reporters did as well.

JOHNSON: But did all those secretaries --

KARL: That doesn't with this one.

JOHNSON: -- come out and do public speeches as often as Hegseth does? To be everywhere all the time among the troops?

KARL: Well, public speeches where he summons -- but I mean, answering questions.

JOHNSON: He's restoring --

KARL: And of course, I mean, you guys haven't brought him up to ask about what's happening in Venezuela.

JOHNSON: Yes. We're not in session because Chuck Schumer shut the government down. OK? We have a lot of things to do. But I would tell you this about the secretary of war. We are winning, we are restoring peace through strength, that's one of our core principles.

KARL: Don't you have questions about Venezuela?

JOHNSON: What about it?

KARL: Would you have questions about what is happening in Venezuela? We have this build-up around Venezuela. We have the targeting of these boats. I mean, you must at least have questions about it?

JOHNSON: Targeting of the boats?

KARL: I know we have questions.

JOHNSON: You have drug cartels bringing in fentanyl and boatloads of it that would kill potentially hundreds of thousands of Americans? What we're doing is reel storing --

KARL: You have no questions about how they're doing it?

JOHNSON: No, I believe in peace through strength. I think that the president and the commander-in-charge of ensuring national security and the safety of the American people. And I think most commonsense Americans look at that and say thank goodness. You take out one boat full of fentanyl, you save hundreds of thousands of American lives.

It was the leading cause of death for Americans aged 18 to 49 during the Biden administration. We are fixing that. And that's why the American people put a strong commander-in-chief back in the office.

KARL: All right. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, thanks a lot for being here this morning.

JOHNSON: Thank you, my friend. Good seeing you.

KARL: Coming up, what will it take for Democrats to agree to reopen the government? We'll ask House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, and why hasn't he endorsed the Democratic candidate for New York City mayor, Zohran Mamdani?

We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What assurances can you offer Democrats that they will get a negotiation on this?

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): Well, I mean, I think, yes, I told them, I said -- and I said we are willing to have a conversation. I've said if you need a vote, we can -- we can guarantee you get a vote by a date certain. At some point, Democrats have to take yes for an answer. But I agree totally, we are all about getting health insurance down, making it affordable to more people, premiums shouldn't be going up by that amount.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Republican Senate Leader John Thune offering a vote on health care provisions if the Democrats agree to vote to reopen the government.

I am joined now by House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.

Leader Jeffries, thank you for joining us this morning. And I want to start right with what we heard from Senator Thune. He has offered Democrats to -- Democratic Leader Schumer, that they would have a vote on extending those Obamacare subsidies in negotiations if they agree to open the government. Is that something that Senator Schumer should accept?

MINORITY LEADER REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D) NEW YORK: I think what we need is decisive action. We have repeatedly made clear, Leader Schumer, myself, Democrats in the House and the Senate, that we want to sit down, find a bipartisan path forward to enacting a spending agreement that actually makes life better for the American people as opposed to gutting the health care of everyday Americans.

We need to reopen the government, stand by our hard-working federal civil servants, but we also, of course, have to decisively address the health care crisis that Republicans have visited upon the American people.

We're talking about the largest cut to Medicaid in American history. Hospitals, nursing homes, and community-based health centers are closing all across America because of what Republicans have done with their one big, ugly bill. And now, they refuse to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits. And tens of millions of Americans, as a result, are about to experience dramatically increased premiums, copays, and deductibles that will either bankrupt them or prevent them from having the ability to go see a doctor when they need one.

KARL: But what Senator Thune is offering there is to have a vote on a Democratic or bipartisan plan to extend those subsidies so people's premiums don't go up as they will now dramatically in January if the Democrats simply agree to vote to have that temporary funding extension.

Is that something you would be willing to agree with? You get your vote on healthcare, but you also reopen the government.

JEFFRIES: I think what we've said is that we will not support a partisan Republican spending bill, which is the bill that they continue to bring before the Senate, and that emerged from the House, if that bill guts the health care of the American people. And that's the reality.

Now listen, there have been votes on the Affordable Care Act tax credits in both the House and the Senate throughout the year. And Republicans have repeatedly voted against extending those tax credits because they care more about George Santos and freeing him than they do about providing health care to everyday Americans.

That's the unfortunate reality that we confront. That's why we need a change in position to actually, decisively address the health care crisis that's impacting the American people, and at the same time, by the way, deal with the cost of living crisis that Donald Trump and his policies have made worse.

These people promised to lower costs on day one. Costs haven't gone down. They're going up.

Inflation is going up. The Trump tariffs are costing everyday Americans thousands of dollars more in expenses per year. And now, because of their refusal to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits, people are confronting premiums that will double, triple, or in some cases quadruple in amount.

KARL: So, President Trump, by the way, was asked about the healthcare issue, and I want to play what he said. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Would you make a deal with them on the ACA subsidies?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we -- if we made the right deal, I'd make a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, I mean, that's what he said. We -- the president said he would make a deal, you know, reopening the government for something on -- on the Obamacare or American -- the Affordable Care Act subsidies.

Have -- have you tried to call President Trump directly on this?

I do know he picks up that phone pretty regularly. Have you tried to call him directly?

JEFFRIES: We have repeatedly and publicly and privately made clear to our colleagues on the other side of the aisle that we will sit down with them anytime, any place with anyone either at the capital or back at the Oval Office to reopen the government, find a bipartisan path toward enacting a spending agreement that actually improves the quality of life of the American people while at the same time decisively addressing the Republican healthcare crisis that's devastating people throughout the country, working-class America, rural America, urban America, smalltown America, the heartland of America, and of course, Black and Brown communities throughout America.

But we haven't heard anything from Donald Trump or the Republicans over the last few weeks. They have gone radio silent since the Oval Office meeting. In fact, we know Donald Trump has spent more time on the golf course over the last few weeks during this painful government shutdown than he has speaking to Democrats on Capitol Hill to try to find a bipartisan resolution.

And as you pointed out earlier with Speaker Johnson, House Republicans are now heading into their fourth week of vacation. They continue to cancel votes. They have no interest in doing the business of the American people. And that's unfortunate.

KARL: I want to also ask you -- obviously, we're getting closer to that New York mayor's race. You still haven't endorsed Zohran Mamdani, have you?

JEFFRIES: I have not.

KARL: And why is that?

JEFFRIES: Well, as I've indicated, I expect to have a conversation with him at some point this week in advance of early voting, which begins next weekend in New York City. And we'll certainly have more to say about the mayor's race and about our Democratic nominee prior to early voting beginning.

KARL: What is it, though, that has held you back? I mean, usually this is somebody that wanted Democratic primary. You know, it usually wouldn't be that much of a question whether or not, you know, congressman from the city of New York, the Democratic leader would endorse. What's given you pause?

JEFFRIES: Well, we've had very good conversations over the last few months in advance of the government shutting down, that were forward looking, that were community based, that were focused on, in particular, his efforts to make New York City more affordable. That's the right issue to focus on. It's why he decisively won the primary, and I look forward to continuing that conversation next week.

KARL: All right. Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Really appreciate your time.

JEFFRIES: Thank you.

KARL: Coming up, the next likely mayor of New York City went on Fox News this week to deliver a direct message to President Trump. The Roundtable is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW CUOMO, (I) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: This is not a job for someone who has no management experience to run 300,000 people, no financial experience to run $115 billion budget. He literally has never had a job. On his resume, it says he interned for his mother. This is not a job for a first timer. Any day you could have a hurricane, God forbid, a 9/11, a health pandemic.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: And if we have a health pandemic, then why would New Yorkers turn back to the governor who sent seniors to their death in nursing homes? That's the kind of experience that's on offer here today. What I don't have an experience, I make up for an integrity. And what you don't have in integrity, you could never make up for in experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo sparring with Zohran Mamdani, who has a big lead in the race to beat New York's next mayor. What will it mean for Democrats to have a Democratic socialist in charge of America's largest city? We'll be right back with the Roundtable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Let's bring in the roundtable.

Former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, “Puck” chief Washington correspondent, Leigh Ann Caldwell, “SCOTUSblog” editor, Sarah Isgur, and former Trump White House chief of staff Reince Priebus.

So, Donna, huge rallies yesterday. The "No Kings" rallies. But we’ve seen big rallies before. Is this going to make a difference?

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think so. Look, when I saw the rallies back in June, I thought, well, this is great. You got all these -- this big, diverse coalition of Americans coming together. But yesterday, not only on The Mall in Washington, D.C., but across America, in small towns, red cities, red states. It didn't matter. People gathered because they wanted to tell, not just the president, but tell each other that this is America. This is about we the people. And again, no kings or queens.

KARL: I mean, we saw, of course, speaker of -- speaker of the House said that this, hate America rallies. I also want to play something that caught a lot of attention this week from Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They don't stand for anything except for catering to their far left base, which as I said, includes anti-Semites, includes Hamas terrorists, illegal aliens, and violent criminals who they want to let off freely to roam in American streets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRAZILE: Oh, wow.

KARL: So -- so, Reince, all this sounds a little bit like the deplorable stuff that we heard from Hillary Clinton back in 2016 or 2015.

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Ah --

KARL: I mean -- I mean they’re --

PRIEBUS: Well, the Republicans have been putting up with this for a long time. And as far as the three, you know, the -- the -- this event yesterday, I mean, the timing couldn't be more stupid. I mean, here you had the president traveling to Israel and Egypt on Monday brokering what hopefully will continue to be the -- one of the more amazing peace deals in the history of the Middle East and --

KARL: Doesn’t seem to look very good right now, by the way, if it’s --

PRIEBUS: And -- and -- well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm hopeful.

KARL: Yes. Yes.

PRIEBUS: But -- and not to mention the president finished the week with Zelenskyy. And here they are protesting.

KARL: Not providing the --

PRIEBUS: Here’s the problem. Most people out there don't even hardly notice this stuff's going on. So, where they get their information is in social media. And in social media, what they see are a bunch of -- in -- on social media, because it's -- it’s picked off. A bunch of goofy, oddball people protesting things that the president promised he was going to do, like immigration, securing the border, yes, deportation, ending wars.

So, what I think it does is it amplifies the reasons why the Democrats lost the election to Donald Trump, because they’re on the wrong side of 80/20 issues. I think it helps us, to be honest.

KARL: Sarah, help me out, though. I mean, this is demonizing half the country, just like Hillary Clinton demonized half the country when she was talking about Trump supporters in 2016.

SARAH ISGUR, EDITOR AT SCOTUSBLOG & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: It's a very different message than we saw in Trump's first term like the -- remember the pink hat situation at the beginning? It was a lot of outrage. It wasn't very family-friendly, and I think that did turn a lot of people off.

This was a very different vibe yesterday. But look, at the end of the day, what we're going to see is New Jersey and Virginia, two very blue states that have these off-cycle elections.

Let's see what turnout is. Let's see what Democrat margins are. If they win those races.

The Virginia A.G.'s race not looking very good, for instance.

KARL: What are your sense on these off-year elections?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, PUCK CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: So, Democrats are feeling good in New Jersey and in Virginia. But the party or the country is watching these -- the political people are watching these elections extremely closely. Donald Trump is obviously an issue that is being debated in these issues but -- in these elections, but also so are cost of living issues, and it's going to tell where the country is, where the electorate is right now.

Especially, people really want to watch Virginia -- the Virginia gubernatorial race because it is a purplish. It's more blue state now, but it is a purplish state to see what a swing-ish state like is feeling.

KARL: So, so -- and then the other election, of course, is New York City mayor's race.

CALDWELL: Yeah.

KARL: And I want to play something from Zohran Mamdani, interestingly, going on Fox News and then giving a direct message to Donald Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NYC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: And I just want to speak directly to the president which is that I will not be a mayor like Mayor Adams who will call you to figure out how to stay out of jail. I won't be a disgraced governor like Andrew Cuomo who will call you to ask how to win this election. I can do those things on my own.

I will, however, be a mayor who is ready to speak at any time to lower the cost of living. That's the way that I am going to lead this city. That's the partnership I want to build.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I have to say, impressive that he goes on Fox News. I mean, and -- and he seemed to handle them. I mean, what do you think?

BRAZILE: Look, he's meeting with Jewish leaders. He's meeting with Black pastors. He understands that he has to build a coalition from the left back to the center.

I think he's running a very impressive campaign. I didn't know him prior to him -- I guess Mr. Mamdani throwing his hat into the ring, but he was able to energize New Yorkers. He has a single message and focus on affordability. That's something that people care about in New York City.

Now, I want to -- I just got to say one thing. It's important that Americans understand that they have the right to peacefully protest. And that's what we saw all over America tomorrow. You might -- yesterday.

You might disagree with what they wore or how they said, whatever, but it was really a peaceful gathering all over the country --

PRIEBUS: OK, fine.

BRAZILE: And people enjoy that. Now, you may not like it, but it was enjoyable.

PRIEBUS: I'm answering a question about what the effect is on the politics of the country.

BRAZILE: It’s a movement. It’s a movement.

PRIEBUS: And they have a right to protest, and they have a light -- right to look like goofballs. That's fine.

As far as Mamdani is concerned, he's got three things going for him. Number one, he's captured what I think to be a fairly smart, leftist economic message, populism type thing, and it's working for him.

BRAZILE: Affordability.

PRIEBUS: He's escaped much of the crazy stuff that he said about defunding the police and sanctuary cities, and he's running against a guy that nobody really likes.

So, I mean, you put it all together, it's not a bad -- it's not a bad strategy.

KARL: Leigh Ann, what -- help me understand or help us all understand what is going on with Jeffries not endorsing him.

CALDWELL: Yes. So --

KARL: By the way, I asked him the exact same question in June, and he told me he had to wait to meet and have discussions with him. He's met with him a couple of times. He's had discussions. He still hasn't endorsed him.

CALDWELL: Yeah. And the fact that he -- I was actually talking to a Democrat about this yesterday. The fact that he keeps saying soon, something is coming soon, I'll make a decision soon -- leaving it out there hanging is actually what's frustrating some people, rather make a decision. But --

KARL: He will probably endorse him, right?

CALDWELL: I don't know. So, I don't know. We don't -- we're running out of time. Schumer hasn't endorsed either.

Both of these congressional leaders are most focused on winning back the House and winning back the Senate. And they are having to protect their moderate centrist members who don't want any more association with Mamdani, which will be used in campaign ads.

And so, that's what they are focused on. But the problem is they are both New Yorkers.

KARL: Yeah.

CALDWELL: You know, they are going -- Mamdani is going to be the mayor of their district, of their -- of their city, and that's why there's so much attention on this.

But -- but -- so, they have their own political calculations, but it also is frustrating the left, and it is frustrating some people in their home states and districts.

ISGUR: They are terrified that this guy is going to be an anchor on the party heading into the midterms. The second he gets into office, he moves to the far left and that he is the poster child for Republicans. That the midterms don't become a referendum on Trump, that they become a referendum on the mayor of New York, a Democratic socialist who then becomes the face of the Democratic Party, the message of the Democratic Party because they haven't had anyone else except Joe Biden.

KARL: OK. I also want to get to John Bolton, indicted now in 18 counts. How many years could he face?

ISGUR: Ten per.

KARL: Ten, so 180 years in prison?

ISGUR: He's 76-years-old, so probably not.

(LAUGH)

KARL: Probably a little -- probably -- probably a little less. So look, this seems to be a serious case. This is much more serious than the case against Letitia James.

ISGUR: Absolutely.

KARL: Or -- or -- or you know.

ISGUR: It's more serious.

BRAZILE: James Comey.

KARL: Or James Comey.

ISGUR: It's not just more serious because it's about classified documents, it's more serious because of the evidence that they at least say that they have. They seem to have real specific detailed evidence that John Bolton actually did the things that he's indicted for doing.

KARL: Of course, he has pled not guilty.

ISGUR: He has pled not guilty. But this is one of those cases where, yes, he was indicted because he is Donald Trump's critic and a former staffer, or a senior staffer to Donald Trump. But also, it looks very much like they have the receipts here.

KARL: But I mean, Trump would -- this would not have happened if Trump hadn't targeted him.

PRIEBUS: Well, I mean, if a Democrat stayed in the White House, they would've left him alone because he's a -- he was a tool of the Democrat Party after he left the White House. But what also I find to be interesting about the denials now from John Bolton, he is not denying I didn't do it. Notice his lawyer is now saying, well, the other DOJ looked at it and they didn't charge on it. So, I have a --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: I mean, he's pleading not guilty.

PRIEBUS: I have a top secret SCI claim (ph) --

KARL: Yeah.

PRIEBUS: Donna, I think, might have as well. I can tell you, I've never emailed a top-secret classified documents once in -- once in my life, let alone even on the high side. I've never done that. It's just, and you get trained every year about this stuff. It gets pounded into you.

KARL: Is it a little uncomfortable, though, for the administration, given that, I mean, Trump took boxes of classified --

BRAZILE: It's so ironic --

KARL: I mean --

BRAZILE: -- that we're even talking about this when, again, that the Trump even refused to give up the documents. They had to go in and get them. So look, he's innocent until proven guilty. He's not a tool of the Democratic Party.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: (Inaudible) Trump was president.

BRAZILE: He's a former national security official who should have known better. You're right.

PRIEBUS: He was president.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: When you're given those briefings, I was afraid to even bring my pencil in the room. No, you just don't do that. But on the other hand, John Bolton, he will have a good defense, and I suspect that at the end of the day, it's going to be a very hard case for him to be exonerated.

CALDWELL: Well, a judge and a jury will eventually decide this. But the thing is that Trump has been very clear and very open that he wanted John Bolton indicted and other perceived enemies indicted before this, and there are probably more to come.

KARL: So, so Sarah, can Bolton use the political motivation as a defense?

ISGUR: It will be much easier for Jim Comey and Letitia James to make an argument for selective or vindictive prosecution because the cases against them are so unusual for DOJ to bring. The only explanation is because of their political speech, for instance. That's not true with John Bolton. They bring lots of classified documents cases at the Department of Justice. Because Trump has said what he said, no doubt he will file that motion. I predict he will lose it.

KARL: And the fact that Trump himself had done what he did, irrelevant in this case, or (inaudible) matter?

ISGUR: Should have political --

KARL: As a legal matter.

ISGUR: Yes.

KARL: As a legal matter, I'm asking.

ISGUR: Politically, it should matter. Legally, it probably will not.

KARL: Little uncomfortable in terms of the PR on this, though.

PRIEBUS: I'm sure Trump's not uncomfortable at all.

(LAUGH)

PRIEBUS: (Inaudible) care less.

ISGUR: He doesn't have that feeling.

(LAUGH)

PRIEBUS: And my mom used to say, your sins will find you out. And obviously, when you lay it out on a silver platter like that, he has got a big problem.

KARL: OK. All right. Reince, Sarah, Donna, Leigh Ann, thank you very much for being here. Up next, about 1.6 million undocumented immigrants have chosen to self-deport since Donald Trump took office, according to DHS. We will bring you one of those stories when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O'REILLY, HOST: So even if collateral people, they are subject to deportation even if they don't have a criminal record?

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BORDER CZAR: Absolutely. Are they are in the country illegally? It's not OK. (INAUDIBLE). It's a crime to enter the United States illegally, and we are not going to turn a blind eye to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Trump border czar Tom Homan. As the administration has ramped up immigration enforcement, it has also called on those who are in the country without legal status to self-deport to their home countries.

Together with our ABC station WTVD in Raleigh, North Carolina, ABC's Matt Rivers followed one such family making that difficult decision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATT RIVERS, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Rivera household in suburban Raleigh.

JENNIFER RIVERA, WIFE OF FIDEL RIVERA: Did you go?

RIVERS: It may look like a typical weekend. Fidel and Jennifer Rivera taking on daughter Isabella at card games.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Put this thing down, bro.

RIVERS: Cheering on their older daughter, McKenzie, at the soccer field. But for this family, these everyday moments are precious and fleeting.

FIDEL RIVERA, SELF-DEPORTING FATHER: I'm going to miss my wife, and I'm going to miss my kids.

RIVERS: Fidel and Jennifer just celebrated their 17th wedding anniversary, but Fidel is undocumented, coming to the U.S. from Mexico in 1995.

RIVERA: There was no jobs, and I decide to come in over here to look for a better future.

J. RIVERA: The only thing that he's ever done wrong was come here without documentation.

RIVERS: Without any legal status he risks being detained and deported. And together they have now made the agonizing decision for Fidel to self-deport alone.

RIVERA: To give the peace to my wife and to my kids. I don't want, they see me and they -- in handcuffs with chains in the jail.

RIVERS: This is not an unfounded fear.

J. RIVERA: We started seeing people that were being picked up for dumb things like not criminals. I did not want my husband wrapped up in that.

RIVERS: The second Trump administration's aggressive immigration enforcement has escalated the rick of detention. Currently, nearly 60,000 people are being held by ICE, almost half have no criminal record, only immigration violations.

KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I'm Kristi Noem.

RIVERS: Part of the government's campaign, self-deport now.

NOEM: If you don't, we will find you and we will deport you. You will never return.

RIVERS: According to DHS, Fidel will be joining some 1.6 million people who have already self-deported.

J. RIVERA: This is heartbreaking. I don't want to wake up on Tuesday without my best friend next to me. But that's what I'm being forced to do, to keep him safe.

RIVERS (voice-over): Fidel and Jennifer met salsa dancing, married two years later and raised a family. She teaches math. He went to school to be an electrician and worked in construction. But he had no legal path to citizenship.

J. RIVERA: Even though he's married to a U.S. citizen, even though we have two U.S. citizen children, even though he pays taxes, even though he has a job, even though he is not a drain on society.

RIVERS (voice-over): Despite advocating to change the laws for mixed-status families, their lives have been on hold.

J. RIVERA: So we couldn't make any plans. We couldn't plan for our future. We couldn't plan for retirement. We couldn't plan for our kids' future.

RIVERS (voice-over): And now, he has to move on.

F. RIVERA, SELF-DEPORTING FATHER: I am going to be, again, just by myself and start a new -- start a new life over there.

RIVERS (voice-over): The rest of the family will stay behind.

J. RIVERA: So you hear people saying, why don't you just get up and move with your family? I can't leave. I'm a -- this is my 24th year of teaching. I have to hit 30 to get my full retirement. We have a senior in high school. She doesn't want to leave her senior year.

MACKENZIE RIVERA, DAUGHTER OF FIDEL RIVERA: You're telling me in six months, when I'm about to have my graduation or something like that, but one of my parents is not going to be there. It's just very -- like, it just makes me upset.

RIVERS (voice-over): So come Monday morning --

F. RIVERA: I got to cry somewhere.

RIVERS (voice-over): Boxes standby, ready for shipping, bags hauled out to the car. They head to the Raleigh Airport.

J. RIVERA: We can't go in the line with you.

RIVERS (voice-over): -- leaving his family behind.

J. RIVERA: Your eyes are leaking.

(LAUGH)

F. RIVERA: I got to go.

RIVERS (voice-over): Fidel is on his way to what lies ahead. First, a flight to Mexico City and an immediate check-in with Jennifer, then on to Merida on the Yucatan Coast, where a friend meets him. The next day, reality setting in.

F. RIVERA (through translator): The most difficult thing is waking up this morning and knowing that I can't wake my girls, that I can't tell them it's time to go to school. I have a beautiful family that I am going to forge ahead for from here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Our thanks to Matt Rivers and to WTVD in Raleigh, and to the Rivera family for sharing their story with us. We'll be right back

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)