'This Week' Transcript 10-5-25: Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Sen. Cory Booker, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Adm. James Stavridis & former Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Chiarelli

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 5, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: Two years after the October 7th attack in Israel, is an end to the war in Gaza within reach?

"THIS WEEK" starts now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a big day. We have to get the final word down and concrete.

RADDATZ: Israel and Hamas back President Trump's plan to free all remaining hostages.

TRUMP: Everybody was unified in wanting this war to end, and we're very close to achieving that.

RADDATZ: But with key differences remaining, will the peace plan actually end the conflict? This morning, Secretary of State Marco Rubio on the latest reaction from freed hostage Keith Siegel, plus former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Admiral James Stavridis.

Shutdown showdown.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They need to come to the table.

RADDATZ: The federal government grinds to a halt as Washington clashes over health care spending.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We’re ready to work on a path forward to lower health care costs.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): We need to get this government back open, and then we can talk.

RADDATZ: How much longer will the shutdown last? We'll ask Democratic Senator Cory Booker.

And new marching orders.

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We became the woke department, but not anymore.

RADDATZ: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth lays out his standards to the nation's top commanders.

HEGSETH: It's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon.

RADDATZ: We’ll get reaction from former Army Vice Chief of Staff Peter Chiarelli.

Plus, analysis from our powerhouse roundtable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's "THIS WEEK." Here now, Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ: Good morning, and welcome to "THIS WEEK."

This morning, just days away from the two-year anniversary of the horrific Hamas massacre in Israel on October 7th, a sense of hope for the release of the remaining hostages and for the end of the war in Gaza. But that hope remains temperate with significant gaps still remaining to reach a deal.

Overnight, Israelis rallying for peace after Hamas agreed in principle to President Trump's proposed 20-point peace plan, including the release of all remaining hostages still held inside Gaza. But with conditions. President Trump and leaders around the world responding positively to the progress. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying in a televised statement last night, we are on the verge of a very great achievement.

Our Ian Panel, who has covered this work extensively, starts us off.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT IAN PANNELL (voice over): This morning, mounting hope for a major diplomatic breakthrough and an end to the war in Gaza.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a big day. We’ll see how it all turns out. We have to get the final word down and concrete.

PANNELL (voice over): The president's 20-point plan calls for the war to end immediately, but calls first for the release of all remaining hostages within 72 hours. In its response, Hamas saying it would release all the hostages as long as “proper field conditions” are met. Those conditions, unclear.

In exchange, some 250 Palestinian prisoners would be released, as well as 1,700 Gazans detained since October, including women and children, and the bodies of 15 Gazans for each dead Israeli returned.

The plan also calls for Israel to gradually withdraw from Gaza, handing over the administration of the strip to an international body with support from Arab nations. A massive increase in humanitarian aid into the devastated enclave would follow if an agreement is reached.

Trump reacting on social media, saying he believes Hamas is “ready for a lasting peace,” and that “Israel must immediately stop the bombing of Gaza.”

Netanyahu, speaking to the nation in Hebrew on Saturday evening, saying, “we’re on the verge of a great achievement. Hopefully, in the coming days, during the Sukkot holiday, we’ll be able to announce the return of all our hostages.”

But despite Trump's calls, IDF attacks on Gaza City continuing overnight. And there is still many questions and skepticism, not least because Hamas hasn't agreed to disarm as demanded by President Trump.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PANNELL (on camera): And, Martha, there’s still a long way to go. Negotiators are going to meet in Egypt tomorrow to try and hammer out the details and get this across the finish line, as resolutions to some of those key issues really remain allusive.

But there are signs of hope that the end to this devastating conflict may be in sight. And I think it's going to depend on two key things. Number one, will either side compromise? And I think above all else, President Trump has really changed this game. Is he willing to stay the course, knock heads together and push this across the finish line.

Martha.

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Ian Pannell.

I'm joined now by Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

Good morning to you, Mr. Secretary.

SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO: Good morning.

RADDATZ: Let's pick up where Ian left off. Are there real signs of hope here? Is this different?

RUBIO: This is the closest we've come to getting all of the hostages released. Every single one. All 48, including the 28 who are deceased. Of course, the 20 that are still alive. But, you know, there's a lot of pitfalls along the way. There's some work to be done here.

I would encourage everyone to think about this in two phases. Phase number one, which Hamas has accepted, is the president's framework for release. The hostages are released and Israel pulls back to what's been called the yellow line, roughly where they were in August of last year. And that exchange happens. And that's the first phase of these talks, because you have to work through the logistics of that. You know, where do we -- who's going to come pick them up, what's going to be the process for the exchange. We want to see that happen very quickly.

The second phase of this conversation, and they can be happening simultaneously, is, what happens after that? What happens after Israel pulls back to this line? What happens with this international group that's going to come in and create a governance structure, an international governance structure, led by technocrats, Palestinian technocrats, et cetera? That's the part that I think is going to be a little tougher to work through. But that's what's going to provide permanency to the end of the conflict.

So, we're focused on those two phases. Phase number one, incredibly important, getting those 20 hostages -- all 48 hostages back.

RADDATZ: And, Mr. Secretary, let's drill down on some of those things. One of the things that Hamas said about releasing the hostages is, “with the provision of proper field conditions for carrying out the exchange.” You mentioned that briefly, but is that a complicated process? Do you really have hope they will be released and these aren't things to stall?

RUBIO: I do have hope that they'll be released. And I think there's chances. Look, the field condition piece, which the president alluded to in his Truth Social post on Friday evening is, you can't have an exchange of hostages, you can't, you know, obviously bring them out if bombs are going off and active combat is occurring. And fortunately, as you saw, the Israelis have announced that they have now suspended all offensive operations in the region, with the exception of, like, addressing an imminent threat. You know, someone's coming towards them with what they think might be a suicide vest --

RADDATZ: There were bombings last night.

RUBIO: -- or dressed (ph) that --

RADDATZ: There were bombings last night in Gaza City.

RUBIO: Well, then we have to look into that. Yes. Well, again, we have to look at exactly what those operations were. But ultimately, yes, you cannot have an exchange and if there's active combat ongoing. You just can't do it. I mean for the safety of the hostages and for the Red Cross or whoever it is that's going to go in there and be a part of this exchange. You have to set the conditions. The Israelis have said that they would only deal with imminent threats. So, we'll look into any of that because that's going to be a key component.

Obviously, we have to make sure Hamas is also doing their part in this regard. But there are a lot of opportunities here for whoever wants to sabotage it to do so. And that includes Hamas, by the way, or elements linked to Hamas sabotaging it by -- by. in fact, you know, creating conditions that are not viable for an exchange.

So, no one said this is going to be easy. This is good progress, but a lot of work remains. But it is the most significant development in this entire situation in a very long time. And it's the closest we've been in a long time to seeing a path towards the release of every hostage.

RADDATZ: And one of the things President Trump said is that the -- “the hostages should be returned to Israel within 72 hours of acceptance of the plan.” Has that clock started, or do you not quite think they've accepted the plan?

RUBIO: Well, I think they've accepted the outlines and the principles of the plan. What hasn't been worked out, as we just discussed, is, what is the logistics of it? You know, how is it going to work? Where -- what time, where? You know, there are logistics involved here. You've got to send somebody into that area to go pick them up. We saw that previously in the other hostage releases where the Red Cross would go in, they would take custody of these people, they would bring them back out. All of that has to be worked out. And I think at that point is when I would say, if we want to get technical about this and legalistic is when the clock would begin to run.

The goal in saying 72 hours is he wants to see it happen quickly. This is not something that can drag out. We cannot be here three weeks from now still discussing, you know, the logistics of how hostages are going to be released. That has to happen very quickly in order for the rest of this deal to gain momentum.

We're dealing with two sides here who absolutely despise each other. And, obviously, we understand, after October 7th two years ago, why it is that the Israelis have such little trust in Hamas. And no one should have any trust in Hamas. But we got to get this thing done. And -- and I would say we want to see it done very quickly. And the hostage peace has to happen very, very fast.

RADDATZ: And you're talking about within a couple of days? Should we expect it next week if it doesn’t (ph) happen this week?

RUBIO: Well, actually, the talks -- yes, already some of the technical talk is happening right now. And our hope is that by the time our team gets to Cairo, 90 percent of this has been worked out and we're just sort of finalizing the logistical piece. We'd like to see it done yesterday. I mean, we want to see the hostages moving as quickly as possible.

We understand that we have to get the teams like the Red Cross or whoever it is that's going to be that goes in and gets, all these things have to be worked out. And that shouldn't take that long.

All those talks are occurring even as I speak to you now. We're hoping it will be finalized very quickly, early this week. And I'm hoping, you know, again, who knows the timeline. But this cannot take weeks or even multiple days. We want to see this happen very fast.

If it doesn't, then I think the entire deal becomes imperiled. So this has to happen quickly, for the sake of the hostages, the families and this deal.

RADDATZ: And, Secretary Rubio, President Trump also said that Hamas cannot pose a threat again. They have not talked about part of this deal, which is disarming.

RUBIO: Yeah. Look, that's going to be a key component of that second phase we just discussed. As long as -- as long as there's a threat emanating from Gaza against Israel security, be it Hamas or some successor organization, as long as there are people, organizations inside of Gaza who possess rockets, build tunnels, want to kidnap, murder and rape Israeli citizens and attack Israel, there isn't going to be peace. Everyone knows this, including the Arab countries in the region, which is why they all signed on to this deal put forward by President Trump, that deals with the fact that what Israel wants, what we want with the deal envisions with the countries in the region envision is a Gaza that's run by Palestinian technocrats and Palestinian civil servants and Palestinian leaders that do not pose a threat to Israel.

If there is a threat emanating from Gaza, you're not going to have peace here that's sustainable. So that has to happen, that demobilization has to happen.

And clearly, Hamas is an organization that we do not believe can be a part of that because of their history, their very purpose for existence is to threaten the Israeli state. So that'll have to be addressed in the second phase. And it's going to be a tough piece of it, no doubt about it.

But if we truly want enduring peace, anyone who is in favor of enduring peace should be in favor of demobilization of Hamas or any other armed terrorist organization that seeks to operate from Gaza.

RADDATZ: And President Trump's ally, Senator Lindsey Graham, was critical of Hamas's response. He said it was a classic, "yes, but."

What would you say to the senator?

RUBIO: Well, I would say we all have to be clear-eyed about this, right? There are conditions that have to be met here. If two weeks from now or a week from now, whatever, it's clear that the hostages aren't going to be released and they're playing games, then I think the president stated what our position is going to be. He did so in a Truth Social post on Friday morning, giving them a 6:00 p.m. deadline of Sunday to accept.

And I thought that it was telling that within hours of that, we get this letter from Hamas basically saying we agree to the framework the president's put forward. Let's have our mediators negotiate the logistics for the release of the hostages, and we need to enter into further talks about the rest of the deal.

So, no one here is claiming this is done. What we are claiming is that we have moved a -- so we are in a much better place today than we were seven days ago. A lot could have happened wrong here, but so much could happen, right if we can get this done and we're very dedicated to making that happen.

And look, it's not just the United States, although this is an initiative that President Trump deserves a tremendous amount of credit for. But it's Qatar, it's the UAE, it's Israel who's been involved in these talks. It's Saudi Arabia. It's Indonesia. It's countries like Egypt and Jordan and other countries from the region -- all of whom are pushing hard and are behind this effort.

We all want to see it get done. And I think that collective pressure can make this happen. I'm optimistic it will happen, but it won't be easy.

RADDATZ: We are certainly all hoping it happens as well. Thanks for joining us this morning, Mr. Secretary. We appreciate it.

RUBIO: Thank you. Thanks, Martha.

RADDATZ: As we mentioned, it has been two years since the Hamas massacre on October 7th, and we wanted to take a moment to return to one of the places devastated by that attack that we visited shortly afterwards.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (voice-over): Two years ago this week, this small community of around 800 people in southern Israel, Kfar Aza, was ravaged. Hamas militants infiltrating this kibbutz right on the border with Gaza, murdering 64 and taking 19 hostage.

This is the gate where the Hamas terrorists broke through, one of 30 locations where they gained access.

(voice-over): When we returned a year later, on the anniversary of the massacre, the devastation, the pain was still evident. The abandoned community, a shrine to the dead and the missing.

LIRAN BERMAN, BROTHER OF HOSTAGES GALI & ZIV BERMAN: This is Ziv’s home.

RADDATZ: It’s his home.

BERMAN: Ziv is one of my brothers. And the other end is Gali’s home.

RADDATZ (voice-over): We met Liran Berman, whose twin younger brothers, Ziv and Gali, now 28 years old, are still being held in Gaza, somewhere just miles away.

Liran returns here often to feel their presence.

BERMAN: It’s a whole closet (ph) of emotion. We -- we don't have good days. We have OK days. And -- but mostly it’s like, I'm -- I’m keeping focused on -- on the mission and the mission is return of my brothers and all the other hostages.

RADDATZ (voice over): And last night, with news of a possible hostage release, Liran rallied with other hostage families in Tel Aviv.

BERMAN: When are we going to see my brothers again?

We are suspended between hope and dread. We have lived through Hamas lies before. We cannot let another deal collapse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (on camera): American Israeli Keith Siegel was also taken hostage from Kfar Aza on October 7th before his release this February after 484 days. He returned to visit his ravaged former home on the kibbutz two weeks after his release. You can see him there. And he joins us now.

It is good to see you, Mr. Siegel. We’re so happy you were able to join us today.

You heard Liran Berman there say he is suspended between hope and dread. How optimistic are you that this plan will see the release of the hostages?

ISRAELI-AMERICAN FORMER HOSTAGE KEITH SIEGEL: I am optimistic. I am always optimistic. But until all of my four friends that I met in captivity, Gali and Ziv Berman, Liran’s twin brothers, and Omri Miran, and Matan Angrest, the four of my friends, and all of the 48 hostages, until they are all released and back home with their families, I still continue my mission to advocate for their release and I appreciate this opportunity to -- to bring this to the attention of people that there are still 48 innocent people being held hostage by Hamas terrorists. They’re in a life-threatening situation. They are suffering for almost two years. And we must bring them back.

RADDATZ: You’ve known Liran and the Berman twins at Kfar Aza since they were babies really, and you did see them when you were being held. Can you tell us anything about them and what condition they were in?

SIEGEL: Gali and Ziv Berman were kidnapped together by Hamas terrorists on the 7th of October. They were forced to separate in captivity. Gali and Ziv are the closest friends. They have worked together. They have lived their life together. The Hamas terrorists forced them to separate in captivity. They were both injured on October the 7th. Injured by the terrorists. And it's been a long time since I -- since I have seen them.

I was released over eight months ago. I never imagined I would be free, released, and my friends and all of the hostages that are still there would remain in captivity.

RADDATZ: Can you tell us a bit about your own captivity?

SIEGEL: I spent 484 days in captivity. I was released on the first of February this year. By an agreement that President Trump made happen, was the driving force between -- behind the agreement that set me free. Me and many others. I'm eternally grateful to President Trump for saving my life and for returning me to my family.

I spent six months alone. I was moved around 33 times. I spent time in tunnels, suffocating 130 feet underground, gasping for a breath, left alone there with very, very little food, very, very little water, thinking that we might ever -- might not ever be able to get out of there. I witnessed violence and cruelty. I experienced myself violence and cruelty and abuse of many kinds. The terrorists kicked me and spat on me and screamed at me for no reason. I was told to lie down on my back on the floor and not to move. And that's what I did.

Even so, what I described before, I saw a woman being tortured. They tied her hands together and tied her feet together, and covered her mouth with tape, and they were beating her. They were beating her with a rod, and they were point -- they were stabbing, poking her forehead with a sharp rod. I witnessed this. I saw this. And I saw many other forms of abuse and violence and cruelty that haunt me to this day.

RADDATZ: I cannot imagine what you went through. We hope that the others will be released soon. As your T-shirt says, bring them home. Thank you.

SIEGEL: Thank you.

RADDATZ: And I'm joined by former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Admiral James Stavridis, whose book, "The Restless Wave" is now available in paperback

It's so good to see you, Admiral Stavridis.

From what you heard from Secretary Rubio, the president, and others, do you think this time there could be a ceasefire?

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: I certainly hope so. And I kind of share a cautious sense of optimism about it, although gosh, Martha, we've seen this now for almost a year, kind of a loop of "Peanuts," Lucy with the football. Hamas pulls it away at the last minute.

Look, I'll give you three things I'm thinking about as I watch whether it'll succeed or not. It's like that old Warren Zevon song, "Send lawyers, guns, and money," meaning, what's the governance going to be? The lawyers, the guns. I think that's the biggest sticking point. We heard that from Secretary Rubio. Got to get the guns out of the hands of Hamas. And money. Who's going to pay for it?

Those are the three things I'm really watching. But yes, I'm very cautiously optimistic at this point.

RADDATZ: And when you look at the release of the hostages, if they release the hostages, in many ways, they don't have a lot to negotiate with in the future. So, do you see that happening before they deal with everything else?

STAVRIDIS: I think they have very few choices at this point. It's like the billboards in New Jersey, "Last exit before the tunnel." That's the proposition they're being presented with. So, if they release the hostages, yes, their negotiating leverage goes down significantly. On the other hand, Israel is tired of this war, too. They want those hostages back, but I don't think there's a deep-seated enthusiasm in Jerusalem to just continue the war.

I'll tell you one thing to keep an eye on that no one is talking about. It's the tunnel complex underneath Gaza. Only about half of that has been destroyed. The Israelis will want to decommission that. Once they do, I think the appetite for war there is pretty much over. Cue up Arab peacekeeping force. That's how this could turn out.

RADDATZ: We saw last night, we talked about this with Secretary Rubio, but we saw last night, the Israelis were bombing again even though they said they wouldn't. He said they would be looking into that. What do you think is going on? And will Israel stop bombing? Or is there this line where you can call something defense?

STAVRIDIS: Israel is going to continue to protect its forces, full stop. However, the continued aggressive offensive bombing, taking out target sets, flattening buildings, that's got to stop if we're going to get to the next step, which we all want, which is release of the hostages.

There'll be some back and forth, Martha. But watch for combat to come to a halt until these hostages are released.

RADDATZ: And, Admiral, I want to ask you about -- turn to Venezuela. You've seen those attacks, those U.S. strikes on boats that the president said are drug smugglers or drug traffickers, drug cartels. What's your take on that?

STAVRIDIS: Well, we -- always, people think of me as the NATO guy, but I spent almost four years as commander of Southern Command. I would have been in charge of those operations. So, as a commander, you're thinking, what are we trying to do here? I think what we're trying to do tactically is knock down drugs. We're trying to deter drug smugglers. We're trying to send a pretty strong signal to Maduro, and we're sending a larger signal to Cuba and Nicaragua.

So, I can see the impetus for all this. My concern would be if I were the commander right now, how strong is the evidence that I'm holding in hand that can allow me to consider these people enemy combatants? We really haven't seen much of that evidence. I think the administration would be wise to release at least some of that so they can justify these kind of extremely aggressive military strikes.

RADDATZ: And just quickly if you can, the legality of this. He says that it is in armed conflict with drug cartels.

STAVRIDIS: It's right on the edge. And that is why, see paragraph one, let's get the evidence out. Not the sources and methods, but what are we basing this on? And then let's also capture a few of them alongside the more aggressive means because you want theintelligence. You want to be able to interrogate. You want to be able to hold those drug smugglers accountable in our court system. So, it's right on the edge.

RADDATZ: Okay. Thanks so much, Admiral Stavridis. It's always good to see you.

Up next, it's now day five of the government shutdown. How long could it last? We’ll ask Democratic Senator Cory Booker.

We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: When the Biden administration, when the Democrats have the majority here in the United States Senate, the Democrats on 13 different occasions voted for this, a short term continuing resolution. Now, I have to ask, what's changed? What's different about this? What's different is who’s in the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Senate Majority Leader John Thune criticizing Democrats for not supporting a short-term budget resolution to keep the government open.

I'm joined in studio by Democratic Senator Cory Booker on day five of this shutdown.

Let's talk about what John Thune said and whether there have been any negotiations or conversations this weekend, bipartisan.

SEN. CORY BOOKER, (D) NEW JERSEY, STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS COMMITTEE CHAIR: Well, that's a frustrating thing. John Thune is absolutely right. Thirteen different occasions when we were in charge, we passed budgets because we did it in a bipartisan way. It wasn't our way or the highway. We came together in what they call a four-corner agreement and negotiated a way forward.

They're not negotiating. Remember, the speaker of the House has kept the House out for the last two weeks. They're not sitting down.

And when he asks what's different, what is different is we are for the first time in America ever, we're on a moment where, because of Donald Trump's attacks on Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act, on the verge of tens of millions of Americans losing their healthcare and most of Americans experiencing a significant rise in their healthcare costs.

This is a different moment than we've ever seen before and it’s really a moment of healthcare crisis of their making.

RADDATZ: But what's not different is this is a short-term seven-week extension. Seven weeks, which the Republicans say you could negotiate in. And those Affordable Care subsidies do not run out until the end of the year.

BOOKER: Well, two things. One is, it's the another C.R. Remember, many of us voted against this six months ago when they said the same thing. Oh, it's just a temporary push. We've had six months plus this time for them to bring us together.

The president hasn't done it. The president himself who said it's the president's responsibility to get a -- bring the parties together and get a budget passed. They control the House, the Senate, and the White House, and the president hasn't done that.

Moreover --

RADDATZ: But they need Democrats, obviously.

BOOKER: They need Democrats, which means come to the table.

What I'm seeing in my state is hundreds of thousands of people losing their healthcare. Millions of people in New Jersey seeing their healthcare premiums double or around that.

RADDATZ: Aren't you a little worried that they're going to blame you for that because they need Democrats? Yes, those could affect your constituents.

BOOKER: I don't care about the blame game. I care about Americans losing their health insurance, rates of death going up, hospitals being crushed, medical services ending in places in rural America.

This is a tsunami of Donald Trump's creation -- the pain, the hurt, the fear that's going to rise amongst millions of Americans who are going to lose health insurance.

Dear God, just come to the table and do something to help Americans. This is truly for many Americans existential.

We're getting calls from Republicans in my state who are part of hospital boards saying what is coming is create -- and it's not coming in January. People will start getting -- literally getting their notes about their healthcare premiums going up in a matter of days.

We need to deal with the crisis of the American people, a crisis of Donald Trump's making.

RADDATZ: And I want to play something from your colleague from New Hampshire, Senator Jeanne Shaheen -- she had to say about the negotiations.

BOOKER: Yeah.

RADDATZ: Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): In order to find that middle ground, it takes people on both sides of the aisle. And I think the good news is that people are still talking. I think the bad news is that we're not seeing the leadership on both sides really willing to sit down and negotiate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Your reaction to that?

BOOKER: I've never seen a president who takes such glee in a shutdown. He's saying with joy, oh, our Project 20 --

RADDATZ: Let's talk about what she just said --

BOOKER: Yeah.

RADDATZ: -- and about leadership and your own party leadership. Do you have any disappointment in your party leadership?

BOOKER: We've seen Chuck Schumer go to the podium, “Negotiate with us,” almost begging the president to bring the parties together like he said. Donald Trump literally has said it's the president's responsibility to bring the parties together and negotiate a way through. This is a failure in leadership.

And for Americans of all parties who are about to lose their healthcare, about to watch their costs go up, for the hospitals that are in danger of closing, for the clinics that are already closing, this is a time where Americans are saying, "Cut it out."

RADDATZ: So, you're fine -- you're fine with your leadership, with everything the Democrats have been doing?

BOOKER: I am proud of those people who are standing up right now and saying, "We're not doing business as usual in Washington with this many millions of Americans are literally going to be hurt because when they're sick, they won't be able to afford to go to a doctor. When they go to the emergency room, the lines will be two times as long.”

We are in a crisis. We need a president to stand up and bring us together to help to solve the problems of the American people.

RADDATZ: Speaking of bringing together, are you confident that your entire caucus, save those Democrats who've already sided, three Democrats who've already sided with Republicans, will stay firm?

BOOKER: I can't speak for other Democrats.

I can tell you right now, I represent New Jersey. Up and down my state, people are afraid. People are hurting. People who run hospitals, who run clinics are saying there is a tsunami coming to this state and this nation.

We have to stand up and fight right now. This is a time where we all should be coming together to do something to alleviate the rising costs, the loss of health care, and the pain that Americans are about to get hit with.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks very much for joining us this morning, Senator.

BOOKER: Thank you for having me.

RADDATZ: Good to see you.

Coming up, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth sets new standards for the military. How is it going over with current and former commanders? That conversation when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank, there goes your future.

And I told Pete, we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: President Trump speaking to the nation's top military leaders where he shattered longstanding protocol to keep politics separate from the military. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth struck a similar tone as he announced a sweeping series of changes to military policies and standards.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (voice over): It was an unprecedented gathering of military leaders with an unprecedented warning from Secretary Pete Hegseth.

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PETE HEGSETH: No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship. No more division, distraction or gender dilutions.

We are done with that (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

RADDATZ (voice over): Hegseth, the former Fox News weekend host and Army National Guard major, who served a 12-month tour in Iraq two decades ago, speaking to senior leaders who are some of the most experienced war fighters in a generation. Generals and admirals who followed military protocol, showing no response as Hegseth laid out his new vision.

HEGSETH: I don't want my son serving alongside troops who are out of shape, or in combat unit with females who can't meet the same combat arms physical standards as men.

RADDATZ (voice over): Announcing that a high male standard will now be the norm for ground combat roles.

HEGSETH: If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it. That is not the intent, but it could be the result.

RADDATZ (voice over): Women have served for more than a decade in ground combat.

MAJ. LILLIAN PFLUKE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: It was hard fought history.

RADDATZ (voice over): Lillian Pfluke, a retired Army officer with a master's in mechanical engineering, is a world champion cyclist.

PFLUKE: Women in all male environments like that have to be so much better than the guys because there is no room for error.

RADDATZ (voice over): And this announcement from Hegseth on new rules about bullying and hazing.

HEGSETH: We’re empowering drill sergeants to instill healthy fear in new recruits. And, yes, they can put their hands on recruits.

RADDATZ (voice over): Also concerned Pfluke, who was in the first class of female cadets at West Point.

PFLUKE: You can't imagine the kinds of things that we are going through. I mean you would walk to class, you would have to salute someone, good morning, sir. It was a good morning until you bitches got here.

RADDATZ (voice over): But Pfluke sees possible irony in Hegseth's call to end DEI programs.

PFLUKE: They want merit-based. Yes. You’re going to have most of the incoming cadets at West Point be women because women tend to have higher SAT scores. They just come in with much higher qualifications.

RADDATZ (voice over): But Pete Hegseth has a message for anyone in the military who questions his plans, including those hundreds of senior leaders who sat silently before him.

HEGSETH: And if the words I'm speaking today are making your heart sink, then you should do the honorable thing and resign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (on camera): And I'm joined now by retired General Pete Chiarelli. He served two tours of duty in Iraq during some of the most challenging days of the war and later served as Army vice chief of staff.

It’s good to see you this morning, General Chiarelli.

You know a lot of people who were in that room with Pete Hegseth and President Trump. Tell me what you’re hearing and what your reaction to the speech was.

FORMER ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF GEN. PETER CHIARELLI (RET.): Well, I'm sure they were -- they were surprised at some of the things that were said. I think it's always great to hear from your -- your leaders. And it was an opportunity from them -- for them to hear from the secretary of defense. But some of the topics that he covered surprised many of my friends in that audience.

RADDATZ: And I want to go -- you were also -- let -- I want to play something that Secretary Pete Hegseth said during that meeting that directly involves you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PETE HEGSETH: The new compass heading is clear, out with theChiarellis, the McKenzies, and the Milleys. And in with the Stockdales, the Schwarzkopfs, and the Pattons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Okay. Didn't pronounce your name correctly, but he said Chiarelli. He was certainly talking about you.

I think we know about General Milley. President Trump does not like him.

Frank McKenzie was head of CENTCOM during the withdrawal of Afghanistan. So, that is likely the reason he called him out.

You've been retired for 13 years. Why did he call you out, do you believe?

GEN. PETER CHIARELLI (RET.), FORMER ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I've done a lot of work in traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress, and I know those are things that are near to his heart. So, I don't believe that that was the reason.

I think it goes back to an incident that happened when I was in Iraq in 2006, when I took action against a commander that at that time the secretary of defense served with when he was a platoon leader for violating the rules of engagement, something that -- that I think are very, very important.

And we know from the secretary's comments to the general officers, he wants to change our adherence to rules of engagement.

RADDATZ: He did talk about rules of engagement. There are some people over the years who did complain that the rules of engagement were too strict. You don't believe so?

CHIARELLI: I don't -- I do not believe so. I do not believe they were politically motivated or overbearing. I believe that we worked very hard to make the rules of engagement something that soldiers could follow. And it lowered the risk to them if, in fact, they followed those rules of engagement, and they did for the most part.

RADDATZ: And the rules of engagement again are there to protect civilians and non-combatants. Correct?

CHIARELLI: That's exactly right. And provide proportionality for the use of lethality, to protect civilians, and to protect prisoners or detainees.

RADDATZ: And I want to talk this morning, and you talk about rules of engagement. The president wants to send National Guard. He was -- it’s been here in Washington, D.C. Of course, that's different to Chicago, to other cities.

When you see that happening, what are your thoughts?

CHIARELLI: Well, I get very, very concerned because our forces don't train on a regular basis for that kind of duty and that kind of security.

I also worry because the rules of engagement for police are much different than the rules of engagement that we apply in combat. They have a higher standard, proportionality standard when applying those rules of engagement, and quite frankly, our forces are not trained in applying those.

RADDATZ: And I want to go back to the speech again, just overall, just finally here. What you heard in the military going forward, you heard him say to the generals, “If you do not agree with this, resign.”

Do you think people will resign? Is there a red line? Is there anything unlawful about what he said?

CHIARELLI: No, there's nothing unlawful about what he said. Nothing whatsoever.

I'm concerned about what I considered an attack on women, and the fact that -- that there are -- there are people who say that women have been let into different combat fields and cannot meet the standards. I just don't believe that's true.

I know when the Army opened up the Ranger program, the standards did not change at all. Not at all.

And the fact of the matter is on today's battlefield, everybody's in combat. Everybody's in combat. We found that out in Iraq.

The minute you set foot from Kuwait into Iraq, you went into harm's way. And we needed medics. And many of our women -- many of our women were assigned to medical units. So, we had to pull them out and send them up with convoys. And they did amazing.

RADDATZ: Okay. Thanks so much for joining us this morning, General Chiarelli. Good to see you again.

Coming up, who's taking the blame for the shutdown? The roundtable shares their take when we come back.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, (R-AK): Whether you are in a blue state or whether you are in a red state, for all Americans, we shouldn't be targeting different areas in ways that, that would be viewed as punitive. That's just not what we do.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): All is fair in love and war and I think that there's a price to pay for the Democrats shutting this down. They've shut it down because of a political reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: The debate within the GOP over whether the Trump administration should target blue states with cuts as the government shutdown drags on, the Roundtable will discuss that and more when we come back.

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RADDATZ: Let's bring in our roundtable, former DNC chair Donna Brazile, former RNC chair and former Trump White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, and Puck chief Washington correspondent, Leigh Ann Caldwell.

Great to see you all on this Sunday morning. I want to start with our reporter here.

Leanne, Republicans and Democrats still seem miles apart. How long will this go on or do you see any movement whatsoever? Didn't sound like it from Cory Booker.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, PUCK CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes. No, there's not a lot of movement. There's a lot of betting going on on how long this is going to last and no one knows for sure. But the reality is, is that both parties are extremely dug in. The Republicans are dug into their position. The Democrats are dug into their position. And there is not a lot of movement.

There is some bipartisan talks that are happening in order to try to find a way out of this shutdown, but if the leadership isn't engaged, I'm told the White House isn't engaged yet either, there's not a lot of prospects for that at this moment.

RADDATZ: So, Donna, the longer this shutdown goes on, the more pain everyone is feeling. And again, and it's what I was talking about with Cory Booker, asking for a seven-week extension.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR AND ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right. Martha, as you well know, the Republicans took control of Congress in January. They've had six months since the fiscal year '25, bill was approved with bipartisan support to get those appropriation bills on the floor and to the Oval Office.

The president bears responsibility as the leader of our nation to bring these parties together and to try to make sure that they can get these -- this continuing resolution passed. So I put the blame squarely on the Republicans because they control the House and the Senate, but ultimately, I'm worried about federal workers, and I'm worried about our country because this shutdown should not be occurring.

RADDATZ: And Reince, voters, those polls -- polled anyway, do seem to be putting the blame on the Republicans. In the most recent "Washington Post" poll found more people blame Republicans than Democrats for the shutdown, and voters consistently say they want those Obamacare subsidies extended.

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR AND ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I've seen polls all over the place. This is the most stupid thing I think I have ever witnessed in Washington, D.C. We passed a budget bill in July. The Republicans have offered a clean CR, which means we're going to keep funding the government for the next six weeks at the exact same levels that we've always been funding it.

The same bill that the Democrats voted on four times, the same bill that Chuck Schumer argued for voting for numerous times on the floor. I mean, the guy -- and by the way, what do they want to fund with this $1.5 trillion? And I'm ready to argue illegal immigration because they know it inside and out as far as healthcare, Medicaid, state exchanges, emergency reimbursements through Medicare and Obamacare. They want to fund people who don't want to go to work, who are able-bodied, have no kids under 7 years old, no mental illness health, and they want to fund --

RADDATZ: You're going to want to jump in here, I can tell.

PRIEBUS: -- illegal immigration through state exchanges and reimbursements set up by Obama and Biden, 100 percent fact check true.

BRAZILE: It's not true.

PRIEBUS: 100 percent.

BRAZILE: It's not true. You know, talk to the ranches, talk to small businesses, talk to farmers, talk to Americans who do not get their coverage through their employer. And they are worried about their premiums doubling over the next six weeks. This is a real crisis. The Democrats have tried to get the Republicans to address this healthcare crisis. Most Americans live pay check to paycheck. And I would urge the president, you have --

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: This does not get into the end of the year.

BRAZILE: You have a -- you've always known, but I don't know its number. But you know his number, you should call him and say --

PRIEBUS: The problem here --

BRAZILE: Mr. President, help -- make sure sneeze federal workers are reimbursed for staying on the job. Make sure --

PRIEBUS: They're going to get paid.

BRAZILE: Make sure that we can bring back essential employees.

RADDATZ: They're going to get paid?

PRIEBUS: They're going to get paid.

RADDATZ: Eventually. But meanwhile, paycheck to paycheck.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: They're going to get paid.

BRAZILE: Tell the president to say that.

PRIEBUS: But to sit here and try to argue that Chuck Schumer is not an absolute double-faced fraud who's been arguing for 30 years that we are going to -- that it's irresponsible to have policy debates --

BRAZILE: Chuck Schumer is a leader --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: OK. I want to -- I want to shut guys down for just a second.

PRIEBUS: It was ridiculous.

RADDATZ: I want to shut you guys down.

PRIEBUS: It's so stupid.

RADDATZ: And go to Leigh Ann because you didn't really answer that question, Reince, about polls.

PRIEBUS: Polls are all over.

RADDATZ: Should -- it's a "Washington Post" poll and a Kaiser Family Fund. Should the White House be concerned about this? When they look at polls like that, I'm sure there are other polls, but when they look at polls like this that are blaming the Republicans, should the White House be nervous?

CALDWELL: Yes, and Republicans should be nervous, too. But both parties are watching those polls very closely right now. They're doing their own polling. They are monitoring this because when public opinion starts to turn, that's when we might see some change.

Another thing, Republicans know that the Affordable Care Act subsidies are important, and that is the key issue here, and that is something that needs to be addressed, both parties think. It is going to be a little bit harder on the Republican side because there's some who -- who don't support those subsidies. But from a political standpoint, and so Democrats are using their leverage, it's the right time for them as those letters are currently going out to people, to voters, saying that their subsidies are going to increase dramatically at the end of the year.

And so, they think that they have the leverage right now. They think they have public support. But getting back to polls, they're watching it very closely.

PRIEBUS: And the only thing --

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: The president is considering bailing out farmers, he is -- and he should because his tariffs are hurting them. The president can bring the Israelis and Hamas together, bring the Democrats and Republicans over. It's a football day. The Saints are playing. We need some good luck anyway, bring them over.

PRIEBUS: And -- and --

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Enjoy some --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: Reince, and I do want to ask you about the mass firings that the president has promised. We haven't seen that yet. We've seen some silly memes about it. They say, no, no, it would be really hard to lay off these people, but that hasn't happened. Will that happen? What's the end game here?

PRIEBUS: It may happen and maybe it's a point of leverage. I'm sure that's what's going on here. All I'm saying is this, I agree that these arguments over the extenders are important. I get the hospital reimbursement issue is important. Rural hospitals are important. I get it.

But I think that the idea that we're doing this in a Continuing Resolution when we can fund the government for five weeks and then they're going to get to these issues in the Omnibus Bill. I mean, it -- we know this is true and the Democrats have been saying this for years. Now they're on the other side saying something different.

RADDATZ: And Leigh Ann, I'm going to let you finish here. We have about 30 seconds. How long do you think this can last? I mean, what is the sense up there?

CALDWELL: So it's interesting because earlier in the week, the sense was that it was not going to last very long. But on Friday, you heard press conferences from both leaders, talking to aides and leadership, and they don't see a way out of it. Right now, conversations are not happening. And again, it's going to get back to public opinion and who is to blame. And both parties are watching that very closely. And that's when dynamics could change.

RADDATZ: And I'm sure everybody watching the polls will watch the government shutdown and hope it ends pretty soon.

BRAZILE: Yes.

RADDATZ: Thanks for all of you for being here this morning, and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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