'This Week' Transcript 11-16-25: White House NEC Director Kevin Hassett, Sen. Chris Murphy, Rep. Thomas Massie and Ken Burns

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, November 16, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: President Trump loses a long battle over the Jeffrey Epstein files. Now he wants the Justice Department to investigate Democrats associated with Epstein, even as the president's name appears over and over again in newly released emails.

"THIS WEEK" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a hoax put out by the Democrats and a couple, a few Republicans have gone along with it because they’re weak and ineffective.

KARL: New details in the Jeffrey Epstein case as the House committee releases more than 20,000 pages of documents from Epstein's estate. President Trump is trying hard to fight the release of more Epstein files, but now he says he wants a new investigation.

TRUMP: What did he know with respect to Bill Clinton, with respect to the head of Harvard?

KARL: We’ll speak exclusively with Republican Congressman Tom Massie on his battle with Trump over the Epstein files, and our roundtable on the political fallout.

Back in gear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the American people got a raw deal.

KAR: The government reopens after Democrats fail to get a deal on health care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, why did you vote for it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look at our record and you tell me what you’ve done to protect the health care of Americans.

KARL: Millions brace for the impact as the White House faces new pressure over rising prices.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We need people to be able to go to the grocery store and actually buy what they need for their family. That takes a little bit of time.

KARLL: Senator Chris Murphy is here on the Democratic divide over the shutdown. And we’ll ask Trump economic adviser Kevin Hassett why the White House just rolled back some of Trump's tariffs.

And, revolutionary history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From a small spark kindled in America, a flame has arisen.

KARL: Ken Burns previews his new project out tonight, "The American Revolution."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it's "THIS WEEK." Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to "THIS WEEK."

The longest government shutdown in history is over, with no progress towards addressing the issue that triggered it all, the massive increase in the price of health insurance set to hit millions of Americans in January. And millions more being squeezed by higher prices at the grocery store, as well as the lack of affordable housing and the rising price of electricity.

How much prices are going up right now is actually hard to say. Because of the shutdown, the government didn't gather the basic information needed to calculate inflation since September. In a sign that the White House knows that the high cost of living is a political liability for the president, the administration announced late Friday that it is rolling back tariffs on several consumer goods, including beef, bananas, tomatoes, and coffee. An acknowledgment perhaps of the obvious, higher tariffs almost always mean higher prices at home.

We’ll get to all of that this morning with the president's top economic advisor, as well as a leading Democrat in the Senate.

But we begin with our Mary Bruce and the controversy that engulfed the White House this week over the Jeffrey Epstein files.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY BRUCE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This week, the release of thousands of documents from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein sparking renewed questions about the sex offender's relationship with the president.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Jeffrey Epstein and I had a very bad relationship for many years.

BRUCE (voice over): And now Trump is trying to shift the focus to Democrats. In an extraordinarily rare move, a president now publicly ordering his attorney general, Pam Bondi, and the FBI, to investigate Jeffrey Epstein, but only his relationship with prominent Democrats. Bondi wasting no time complying, appointing U.S. Attorney Jay Clayton, saying, “The department will pursue this with urgency and integrity.”

This despite the fact that earlier this year Bondi herself closed the books on the Epstein case, insisting there’s no there there, saying, “We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties.”

Some Republicans are pushing back on the president's move.

REP. DON BACON, (R) KENTUCKY: I don't think it's appropriate for him to do it. I would ask him not to do that because all it does is taint our legal system.

BRUCE (voice over): Democrats labeling it a desperate attempt to change the subject.

REP. DAVE MIN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Will Donald Trump be investigated as part of this, or is there going to be one set of rules for Donald Trump's friends and supporters and another set for his critics?

BRUCE (voice over): Those emails part of some 20,000 documents released by the House Oversight Committee this week, many of which mention Trump.

In a 2017 email, Epstein writing, “I have met some very bad people. None as bad as Trump. Not one decent cell in his body. So, yes, dangerous.”

Shortly after Trump launched his presidential campaign in 2015, Epstein told at least one reporter that he had dirt on Trump and was willing to share. In a 2018 text to an unidentified person, Epstein writing, “I am the one who is able to take him down.”

Trump has denied any wrongdoing, but he has refused to release the full FBI files on Epstein. And now a bipartisan group of lawmakers are trying to force him to.

Trump, clearly furious, going on a tirade against one of his closest allies, Marjorie Taylor Greene, one of four Republicans who joined Democrats to force the vote on releasing the Epstein files. The president calling her “Marjorie Trader Greene,” labeling her a light weight who betrayed the entire Republican Party and announcing he’s withdrawing his support and endorsement of her.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Something happened to her over the last period of a month or two where she changed, I think, politically.

BRUCE (voice over): Greene firing back, saying, she’s long supported the president, “but I don't worship or serve Donald Trump.”

For “THIS WEEK,” Mary Bruce, ABC News, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR  And I'm joined now by Republican Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who led the effort to release the Epstein files.

Congressman Massie, thank you for being here.

President Trump fought long and hard to prevent your discharge petition from going through. You won that battle. Now what happens? How many Republicans in the House follow your lead and defy the president on this?

REP. THOMAS MASSIE, (R) KENTUCKY & JUDICIARY COMMITTEE MEMBER: I think we could have a deluge of Republicans. There could be 100 or more. I’m hoping to get a veto-proof majority on this legislation when it comes up for a vote. And, you know, the president's been saying this is a hoax. He’s been saying that for months. Well, he’s just now decided to investigate a hoax, if it's a hoax.

And I have another concern about these investigations that he’s announced. If they have ongoing investigations in certain areas, those documents can't be released. So, this might be a big smokescreen, these investigations, to open a bunch of them to -- as a last-ditch effort to prevent the release of the Epstein files.

KARL: I mean, it is extraordinary to hear him demand an investigation and only mention Democrats, only mention his political opponents. But you’re saying he doesn't really -- he may not really even want any investigation. He wants to prevent the release. Why does he want to prevent this? What is he -- what is he afraid of?

MASSIE: You know, I've never said that these files will implicate Donald Trump. And I -- I really don't think that they will. I think he’s trying to protect a bunch of rich and powerful friends, billionaires, donors to his campaign, friends in his social circles. And I -- that's my operating theory on why he’s trying so hard to keep these files closed.

KARL: What do you think is actually in these files? I mean, we’ve seen so much Epstein material, from the criminal cases, the stuff that just came out this week, you know, from the estate. What do you think is left?

MASSIE: Yes, I don't have to guess at what's in the files. I’ve talked to the survivors through their lawyer, and we know there are at least 20 people in those files. They’re politicians, billionaires, movie producers who are implicated criminally who haven't been investigated. And it's up to the FBI, not the survivors, and the DOJ to release those names, or at least to investigate them. And when I see Donald Trump announce a bunch of investigations, I don't see him going after these rich elites that are implicated in these files according to the survivors.

KARL: The president has gone after you in some deeply personal ways. I mean, attacking you over and over again. Even -- even attacking you regarding your wedding, your recent wedding, which, by the way, congratulations. What do you -- what do you make of all that, and he’s, obviously, supporting your primary opponents. I mean, what -- what -- what kind of retribution are you facing?

MASSIE: You know, my wife told me, she said, I told you so, we should have invited Donald Trump. He’s mad that he didn't get an invitation. So, we -- you know, we’re taking it with a grain of salt. He’s being a bully, or trying to be a bully.

And they’re trying to beat me here in Kentucky. But here’s what’s interesting. The people financing this campaign consist completely of three billionaires, and they’re all in the Epstein class. In fact, one of them is named in Epstein's phone book, not the secret files that the FBI is keeping, but in Epstein's phone book. So, it's -- it’s a small world. Dogs don't bark at parked cars. And we are winning. I’m not tired of winning yet, but we are winning. And not only the speaker, but the attorney general, the FBI director, and the president himself, and the vice president, they're taking a big loss this week because after months of fighting, I am winning this week with Ro Khanna. We're forcing this vote, and it's going to happen.

I would remind my Republican colleagues who are deciding how to vote -- Donald Trump can protect you in red districts right now by giving you an endorsement. But in 2030, he's not going to be the president, and you will have voted to protect pedophiles if you don't vote to release these files, and the president can't protect you then.

This -- this vote, the record of this vote will last longer than Donald Trump's presidency.

KARL:  Now, I've talked to Senate leadership who tell me that this is almost certainly not even going to be brought up for a vote in the Senate. What -- what's your sense on that?

I mean, I guess if there's an overwhelming vote, like you said, 100 Republicans join all the Democrats, the pressure will be immense. But do you have any sense the Senate's even going to vote on this?

MASSIE:  Well, they don't have the procedural maneuver that Ro Khanna and I used in the House. They don't have that in the Senate. It's called a discharge petition.

But the senators do have other ways to force votes as amendments, for instance, on larger bills in order to let bills move quicker through the chamber. So, they could force the vote in spite of the leadership's efforts.

I just hope John Thune will do the right thing. Look, our own speaker tried to push this bill by unanimous consent last week, within 15 minutes of me getting the 218th vote, because he was trying to save people from a vote. If he's ready to pass it by unanimous consent, then the Senate leader should be as well. Just bring it up.

But the pressure is going to be there if we get a big vote in the House.

KARL:  All right. Congressman Thomas Massie, thank you for joining us this morning.

And now we turn to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut.

Senator Murphy, thank you for being here.

Before we get to the shutdown and all those related issues -- on Epstein, the president is now demanding or has demanded that the attorney general, the Justice Department, investigate his political opponents. And Pam Bondi responded by basically saying, "Yes, sir," and moving in that direction.

What do you make of that?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT):  Well, it's both heartbreaking and totally unsurprising. The Department of Justice has just become a protection racket for Donald Trump and a witch hunt operation against his political opponents. This is why our democracy is in such peril right now is that for the first time in our history, the Department of Justice operates in order to try to punish and lock up anybody that criticizes Donald Trump.

I'm really proud of the work that Representative Massie has done in the House of Representatives, along with Ro Khanna. And yes, John Thune should bring that vote to the Senate floor as soon as it passes the House of Representatives.

It's true that Donald Trump is trying to cover up for, I think, a host of really powerful and rich people, but he's frankly not that selfless. He wouldn't be going through all of this effort to try to stop the release of these files if he wasn't seriously implicated in those files.

This is most likely the biggest corruption scandal in the history of the country. We know that because Donald Trump is going to these extraordinary lengths to stop these files from coming out.

The Senate should take this vote. I think it'll be a like -- likely another big bipartisan vote, and I'm grateful to our House colleagues for sending it our way.

KARL:  He certainly is going to extraordinary lengths. Of course, the president denies any wrongdoing in any of this.

I want to move to the shutdown. Obviously, longest shutdown in history. You believe it ended too soon.

It was 43 days. Did the Democrats gain anything from the 43 days that the government was shut down?

MURPHY:  Well, let's just remember why we didn't have shutdowns when Joe Biden was president and Democrats were in charge of the House and the Senate. It's because we negotiated with Republicans. We included things that were important to them in short-term and long-term spending bills.

The bottom line here was that Republicans refuse to negotiate with Democrats at all, in any meaningful way, because they are so intent on raising costs as a mechanism to pay for their big billionaire and millionaire tax cut. And that should be shocking to the American people that Donald Trump and Republicans are so committed to raising your health care costs by 50 percent, 100 percent, 200 percent in some cases.

Listen, Jonathan, as you know, I thought it was a mistake for Democrats to give up what was real political advantage coming off the elections that could have allowed us to reduce these premiums. In the end, I thought we had a real shot to get a continuing resolution passed that would have lowered prices for people.

And I also worry that by capitulating, we have empowered Donald Trump, that Donald Trump is going to act even more brazenly and more lawlessly in the future because of how this vote turned out.

Now, what did we get? We got a commitment for a vote in December on the cancellation or the postponement of these massive premium increases. If Republicans don’t vote with us, then it is even more clear to the American public who is responsible for the horror, the horror that is going to happen when millions of people lose their insurance starting in January. That's a very thin silver lining to me, but I'm going to work very hard to make sure that that vote passes. And if it doesn’t, it holds Republicans accountable.

KARL: And even that silver lining, my understanding is, that John Thune, the Republican leader, had offered that vote a month earlier.

But let me -- let me play to you what Vice President J.D. Vance had to say about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  So, here’s what the Democrats actually accomplished. They caused a lot of stress for our troops. They made our air traffic control not get paid. They caused a lot of flight cancellations. They had a lot of people thinking they weren't going to get their food benefits. All for literally nothing, Sean, because we could have struck this exact deal 45 days ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I mean, in a literal sense, take aside the food stamp benefits, which actually the administration pressed to -- you know, fought any solution to that, isn't he right, in a literal sense? I mean, there was -- there was pain in the shutdown. There was more pain coming. And again, all you have is what you call that very thin silver lining to show for it.

MURPHY: Well, he’s certainly right that there is pain in the shutdown. Shutdowns are terrible. But as you mentioned, they made it much worse. They illegally refused to pay nutrition benefits for hungry kids.

But the American public knew who was to blame for this shutdown by overwhelming numbers. They said it was Donald Trump and Republicans. Why? Because they run everything. They run the House of Representatives. They run the Senate. They run the White House. And they made no real effort to end this shutdown. Again, why? Because they are so fundamentally committed to raising people's premiums.

Listen, there’s going to be pain when you are trying to fight to preserve democracy. And, yes, I am disappointed in my colleagues that they weren't willing to stand and fight.

KARL: So --

MURPHY: I don't think that there is a smooth glide path from here until next November. So, we’re going to be back at this again in January. The funding only goes until January 31st. And I'm just very scared that we’re going to, once again, punt, past a short term or long term spending bill that doesn’t do anything about people's health care, doesn't protect our democracy. We still have work to do ahead of us as Democrats.

KARL: You’ve been pretty harsh with those eight of your colleagues who voted the Republicans on this. You accused them of voting with Donald Trump. And I want to just read what one of them, Angus King of Maine, what he had to say about the reasons behind his vote. He said, “A shutdown empowers Donald Trump rather than rein him in. He has used the shutdown to cut off SNAP, to fire more federal workers, to cut off projects he doesn't like particularly in blue states, and to go generally -- and to do generally whatever he wants. I never understood the logic of standing up to a bully by giving him a new weapon to hilt you with.”

Was this a flawed strategy to begin with, the idea of using a shutdown to -- as leverage?

MURPHY: Well, Democrats didn't want this shutdown. But we have values. And so, if you want Democratic votes for a budget, it has to be a moral budget that doesn't destroy our democracy. The fact of the matter is, if you don't put constraints on Donald Trump's illegality, this democracy isn't going to be here next November. It isn't going to be here in 2028.

So, Democrats, yes, have to draw firm, moral lines in the sand right now. We would be suckers if we were to sign on to a long-term budget that, for instance, fully funds the Department of Justice to engage in a witch hunt operation against Democratic senators. So, we don't want a shutdown.

But the situation is unique. Donald Trump is trying to weaponize our compassion against us. This is how we lose democracies all over the world, when despots or would-be despots say, I’m going to hurt the people, use their pain as extortion to try to get you to give me more power to corrupt the nation.

So, there is not an easy path to saving the democracy. There is not a path that doesn't involve some pain. We will have to find unique ways, as the civil rights movement did, to mitigate the pain for people. But there’s no simple pain-free path to saving our democracy. And I hope my colleagues, who I respect greatly, realize that.

KARL: Chuck Schumer has taken a lot of heat for this. Do you still have confidence in him as the Democratic leader? And do you think he will still be the Democratic leader after the midterms?

MURPHY: Well, we can't continue to operate like this in a Democratic Senate. This is not the first time that a small group of Democrats have crossed over to support Republican measures that give Donald Trump more power. So, I've been candid with him and my colleagues that Democrats are going to lose this democracy if we continue to allow Republicans to cleave off 10 or 12 or 15 of us. So we've got some hard conversations as a caucus moving forward. We can't continue to be split like this or we won't save our democracy.

KARL: So --

MURPHY: Certainly, when we return to Washington next week, Senator Schumer is going to have to explain to us how we're going to run the caucus differently, how we're going to be more united.

KARL: We're out of time, but very quickly, before you go, the president said that he has made a decision, has come to a decision about Venezuela, suggesting that there could be military strikes on Venezuela. How big a step would that be and how would -- how should Democrats react to that?

MURPHY: Well, it seems pretty clear it's just an effort to distract people from the rising prices and from the Epstein scandal. No one wants a war with Venezuela to the extent they are claiming it has something to do with the drug trade coming to the United States.

The majority of drugs don't come through the Caribbean. They come via a land route, a land route that the president is ignoring because he is so focused on this absurd, illegal military campaign against Venezuela. So I don't think he'll find much support amongst Republicans or Democrats in this country for it.

And by the way, it's wildly illegal. A president can't start a war with a nation without a congressional authorization. It's just another sign of how out of control and how lawless this president is, and another signal for Democrats as to why we need to draw those firm moral lines in the sand right now to constrain his growing illegality.

KARL: All right. Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, thank you for joining us this morning.

Up next, what's the White House's plan to address those skyrocketing health insurance premiums and will the president roll back more tariffs as Americans feel the pinch from higher prices?

We will ask Trump's top economic adviser Kevin Hassett. We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): We're going to continue this fight to lower the high cost of living in a country where America is far too expensive, far too many people struggling to live paycheck-to-paycheck, can't thrive, and can barely survive. That's what this fight has been all about. And we'll continue to work hard to lower the high cost of living.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: All right. That was House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries.

I'm joined now by Kevin Hassett, the director of the White House National Economic Council.

Thank you very much for joining us.

KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: Good to be here.

KARL: So the president just cut tariffs on a whole range of goods, including coffee, bananas, beef, tomatoes, that have become quite expensive. How soon can we expect prices on those goods to go down?

HASSETT: Right. Well, first of all, like if you look at the history of inflation, right, what happened was that there was right away Democrats spending in Joe Biden's term and we got inflation up almost to 10 percent. It averaged 5 percent over the four years. And that has

created a situation where, for example, mortgage rates went up, and so, the typical payment for a monthly mortgage payment almost doubled.

KARL:  Uh-huh.

HASSETT:  That a bag of groceries was -- that cost $400 a month when President Trump left office, is $500 or $515 when President Trump came back this time. And so, that there's this really big hole that's been dug.

And then the question you could also ask as an economist is like, how do I summarize all those different prices and everything? And one of the ways you could do it is just look at purchasing power, the real wage.

KARL:  But --

HASSETT:  Purchasing power -- I'll just finish this and then I'll get back to you. The purchasing power dropped by about $3,000 under Joe Biden because the wages didn't keep up with prices. Under President Trump, it's already gone up by about 1,200.

We understand that people still feel the pain of the high prices, but we're -- we're closing the gap and filling the gap fast.

KARL:  I mean -- I don't want to get into a numbers -- both those numbers are disputed by many economists.

HASSETT:  No.

KARL:  But both of them are.

But let me ask you the question I asked again. So, the tariffs have been removed from these items that we all -- many of us buy every -- you know, the grocery store. How soon do we expect the prices on those goods now to go down?

HASSETT:  Right. Well, the prices for those goods weren't necessarily going up just because of tariffs. And so --

KARL:  So they may not go down?

HASSETT:  -- the prices will go down. Well, the prices will go down, of course, but --

KARL:  Well, but because the tariffs have been taken off?

HASSETT:  Right. Well, because the supply of the goods into the U.S. is going to increase.

KARL:  But I mean, to state the obvious, I mean, tariffs do raise prices on Americans despite what the president has said over and over again.

HASSET:  It -- it depends on -- so, if you look at it, how much has inflation gone up because of tariffs? Everybody was saying we're going to have stagflation because of the tariffs, but in fact, year-over-year inflation is down. The latest inflation report shows that it's 2-1/2 percent. And that's very close to the Fed's target. And that happened with tariffs coming.

The reason that happens is that for most products, if you think about the stuff we get from China, China sells the products into the U.S. almost -- as much as they can to create jobs in China.

KARL:  You know --

HASSETT:  And that means that they have to lower their costs when we put a tariff on. And that's why inflation didn't happen. And GDP growth is about four percent with the tariffs. So, we didn't get stagflation because the inelastic suppliers have been lowering their prices, but there are some things that aren't inelastically supplied like coffee.

KARL:  I mean, the president often says that prices have come down. Obviously, they haven't. We don't have deflation in -- I mean, there are some goods, gas --

HASSETT:  Gasoline.

KARL:  Gasoline, yeah.

But let's take a look at some of the goods that we buy, you know, regularly, in our household. Let's take a look at this.

Coffee, as you mentioned, up 15 percent. Uncooked ground beef up 14 percent. Bananas up eight percent. Fresh cakes and cupcakes up six percent. Lettuce up almost six percent. Lunch meat, salad, dressings, tomatoes, all up, you know, well more than that, 2-1/2 percent.

I mean, Americans are clearly feeling that prices are continuing to go up, and in many -- with many of the goods that they buy regularly, they are going up.

HASSETT:  Well, again --

KARL:  And more -- I mean by significant numbers.

HASSETT:  Let's look at it. First of all, when we came in, the very first thing that all of you folks were talking to us about was --

KARL:  Eggs.

HASSETT:  -- egg prices.

KARL:  Yeah.

HASSETT:  And egg prices are down year-over-year. You could have put that in your chart right there.

KARL:  Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

HASSETT:  But -- and but the fact is when we had almost 10 percent inflation in the --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  I mean, that wasn't about economic factors. That was bird flu, with the egg prices just to be clear.

HASSETT:  Oh, but the meat prices problem is we've shut the border from Mexico because of an infestation in Mexico. So, there are a bunch of things like that that are targeted problems. And also, so you have lunch meats and meats, but the meats are coming slower from Mexico because there's a pest infestation there.

But the bottom line is, if you want to control inflation, you got to not spend like a drunken sailor. We're -- if you want the macroeconomics of it, we're reducing the deficit this year.

So far this year in the calendar year, it's dropped by almost $400 billion. And that $400 billion is probably going to be about $600 billion reduction in deficit this year. That's the kind of -- that takes the pressure off the price of everything.

KARL:  It's still a mighty large deficit.

So, the president claims that Thanksgiving costs are down 25 percent. I mean, does he know that's not true?

HASSETT:  Well, if you look at Walmart and the few places that put out their prices, Thanksgiving prices --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  Wait -- wait a minute, I got to stop because the Walmart comparison's like not a thing -- I mean, Walmart had a Thanksgiving package last year. They've got a Thanksgiving package this year. The one this year contains much less than what the one last year it took. So that's why the price is less.

Look, we got a chart here. Last year, it -- with 21 total products. This year, it's 15. Total number of items in those projects was -- products was 29 percent, now -- 29, now, it's 22. There's more generic brand stuff.

So, I mean, Thanksgiving -- if you're going to the store to buy groceries for Thanksgiving, it's going to be more expensive this year.

(CROSSTALK)

HASSETT:  You know, I really don't -- don't understand where you're going in the sense that Joe Biden gave us --

KARL:  Really?

HASSETT:  -- Joe Biden gave us 20 percent.

KARL:  He’s not president. Donald Trump's president.

HASSETT:  No, and you're -- you want us to fix the hole that Joe Biden caused right away.

HASSETT:  No, you want us to fix the hole that Joe Biden dug right away.

KARL:  No, I'm saying, why does the president tell --

(CROSSTALK)

HASSETT:  I mean, the prices went up so much under Joe Biden, and inflation is way down. Inflation is about half what it was in December. This is something that's being fixed fast and real incomes are up after dropping about 3,000 under Joe Biden. And so, sure, you could find a few things where the prices is higher, but there's a whole bunch of stuff where the price is lower, like gasoline, like mortgage rates.

KARL:  We're (ph) going to get the Republican plan to do --

(CROSSTALK)

HASSETT:  You understand that mortgage rates have gone way down, and it's much cheaper to buy a home now than it was when (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  Because interest rates have come down, right?

HASSETT:  Yeah.

KARL:  Yeah. So, when are we going to hear from the White House the plan for health insurance premiums? And we have 20-some million Americans are going to have not just rising health insurance premiums, but skyrocketing. When do we get the Republican plan?

HASSETT:  So, it seems, I'm kind of confused because Obamacare is a hundred percent a Democratic policy. The current path of Obamacare is a hundred percent something that was created by Democrats. They added a big expansion, and then they knew they couldn't pay for the whole thing in a long time. And while they did that --

KARL:  So, will there be a plan to do more (ph)?

HASSETT:  Let me just finish that. While they put all of those subsidies into Obamacare, Obamacare became not affordable. It wasn't Affordable Care Act. In fact, the cost of these Obamacare premiums has gone up twice as fast as for the private market.

KARL:  But we really touch (inaudible) is there going to be a Republican plan to address that, or is this just we're going to blame the Democrats?

HASSETT:  Yeah, of course, the president has already talked about -- blame Democrats? The Democrats are at fault for this.

KARL:  OK.

HASSETT:  And in fact, we even had a solution for this in the Big Beautiful Bill, and they took the bird (ph) rule to take $30 billion away from people, so they couldn't have the health insurance that they needed.

KARL:  All right, Kevin Hassett, thank you for joining us this morning.

HASSETT:  Thank you. It's good to be here.

KARL:  Coming up, what exactly is President Trump preparing to do in Venezuela? I'll be back with the Roundtable in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:  In painting, it needs other work too. Look at that, how beautiful that is.

LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST OF "THE INGRAHAM ANGLE," FOX NEWS:  But you're not worried it's like a big white blob. That's --

TRUMP:  No, no.

INGRAHAM:  No?

TRUMP:  What it does is it brings out the detail (ph).

INGRAHAM:  So you're a builder, I'm not. I have no (inaudible).

TRUMP:  No, it really -- it brings out the detail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL:  President Trump there touting his latest White House renovation plan. We're back with the Roundtable in just two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: And the roundtable is here. Former DNC chair Donna Brazile, former Bernie Sanders campaign manager, Faiz Shakir, SCOTUSblog editor Sarah Isgur and former White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus. That's Trump's chief of staff.

Thank you all for being here.

So, Sarah, you used to work at the Justice Department, actually under Donald Trump. And we're now seeing Trump doing something he’s done now a couple of times, but publicly demand that his attorney general, his Justice Department investigate, prosecute somebody. That is not actually new. It happened when you were there. It happened over and over again during his first term. But back then the Justice Department kind of ignored him, right?

SARAH ISGUR, SCOTUSBLOG EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Actually, I remember a meeting that we had where we talked with a bunch of lawyers and we sat around and decided that tweets were not orders from the president. That was a weird day as an attorney.

But, look, this Justice --

KARL: Did you get an OLC opinion on that?

ISGUR: Yes, pretty much.

KARL: OK.

ISGUR: Yes, they’re not orders.

It is the case that this Justice Department, this administration --

KARL: Because Pam Bondi is treating the Truth Socials like -- now, maybe it’s because they’re Truth Socials and not tweets, but --

ISGUR: Totally.

KARL: But she responded almost immediately minutes later saying, ay, ay, sir.

ISGUR: This administration, this Department of Justice, doesn't seem to think about what comes next. The Department of Justice has the ability to exercise enormous power. But you always know you’re handing that power over to the next team. And that's a check. Not anymore it seems.

KARL: Because, I mean, back then -- I remember Bill Barr would talk about how it was making his job difficult when the president would go out there and, you know, demand prosecutions of Democrats. This is not normal, Reince. I know you’re going to -- you’ve got to acknowledge for me, this is --

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: It might be, I don’t know, but normal now. I mean --

KARL: But, I mean, should it be normal? My God.

PRIEBUS: Well, look, it’s his -- he’s in charge of the Justice Department. He’s got someone there, an attorney general, to do that. But I think part of the frustration is --

KARL: But do you think it’s OK for the president to just be saying, investigate my political opponents?

PRIEBUS: I think it’s OK for the president say, look, Bill Clinton's name is here in this file. Michael Wilson's name is here in this file. I think you should look into it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But the media doesn't want to cover that. The media don't want to cover all the Democrats that are in these files. The only thing they want to talk about is whether or not Donald Trump might be in these files.

I mean the fact of the matter is that Democrats flawlessly executed a plan that got nowhere. They debated whether -- this is all this week, debated whether Chuck Schumer

should be replaced. And now, all of a sudden, all we're talking about is the Epstein files.

And he's frustrated and you're seeing the frustration.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  Largely driven by Republicans actually.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  Not just a couple and all it takes is a couple, and a small minority -- majority.

(CROSSTALK)

FAIZ SHAKIR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST & BERNIE SANDERS 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER:  You may be surprised to hear me say this which is that I credit a lot of the integrity of the MAGA movement here because if you look at Trump's second term and you say where did the Epstein start kicking up, it wasn't from traditional Republicans. It was people like the MAGA influencers who they brought in the White House were -- handed these binders saying Epstein files phase one and they felt they were played. They were played.

And then Elon Musk goes out and says, "Hey, this is a cover up." And then what happens? You have Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, a bunch of people on the right saying, "Hey, we want the Epstein files. Where's the integrity?"

And thankfully, there's -- now, you got Nancy Mace, you got Tom Massie, you've got Lauren Boebert, and you got Marjorie Taylor Greene.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  Right, and all it takes is two.

SHAKIR:  Thanks to them, there's some integrity by traditional Republicans.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  Okay, wait.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  Wait a second. You're talking about integrity. First of all, three things can be true. Is it a political hit job? Yes.

SHAKIR:  A special prosecutor, you want a special prosecutor on Epstein.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  Is there nothing there -- is there nothing there as it relates to Donald Trump? Yes. Should the should the files be released? Yes.

KARL:  How do you know --

(CROSSTALK)

SHAKIR:  A special prosecutor.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS:  The file should be released, I've said that for months, but this is a political hit job.

KARL:  By the way, Donald Trump hasn't said that yesterday.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  It -- I agree. The file should be released.

KARL:  Yeah.

BRAZILE:  You're right. The MAGA crowd believed and trusted both Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance when they said, “We're going to release these files.”

I think they should be released so that we can just put everything out on the table. The survivors are dependent on the members of Congress and the administration to get this tragedy over with.

We need to think about the survivors. Look what's happening in Great Britain.

PRIEBUS:  Right. I said. I agree.

BRAZILE:  So, look, I mean, someone lost their title, prince.

PRIEBUS:  But --

BRAZILE:  A U.S. ambassador -- I mean, a U.N. ambassador to the U.S. lost his job.

KARL:  British, yeah.

BRAZILE:  The British ambassador.

So, let's stop pretending there's no “there” there. There's a lot there and we should get to the bottom of it.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  Faiz, Faiz, can I ask you, though, is there a risk for Democrats of spending of getting drawn into this too much and spending too much time talking about Epstein?

SHAKIR:  Only that you need to tie it to what's a bigger agenda.

KARL:  Right.

SHAKIR:  Why does Donald Trump work so hard to defend Epstein? It has to be a bigger narrative, which I believe is factual, which is that Epstein lives in a world of the elites. He lives in a world of wealth and power. Trump's best constituency is Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, the billionaire class that surrounds him in his cabinet. His agenda depends on the support of these people.

Why does he go to bat to make sure people like Reid Hoffman, whoever's names are mentioned in Epstein files, are never seeing the light of day? Because these are his crowd. These are the people he fights for more aggressively than the people on Medicaid, more aggressively than people on SNAP.

He tells them, "Go off" -- you know, good luck to you.

KARL : You know, I'm struck by the Democrats that have defied him, which you referred to earlier.

Let's look at what Marjorie Taylor Greene said in response to the attacks from Trump. She said, "It's astonishing how hard he's fighting to stop the Epstein files from coming out and he actually goes to this level. I have supported President Trump with too much of my precious time, too much of my own money, and fought harder for him than even -- when -- even when almost all of the Republicans turned their back and denounced him.”

All true, by the way, “But I don't worship or serve Donald Trump.”

I -- this is a -- this is kind of an extraordinary development. I didn't pick Marjorie Taylor Greene as --

ISGUR:  We have seen this happen many times. If someone has sort of an actual policy, philosophical world that they've built around MAGA, it usually doesn't end well for them. You can think of Jeff Sessions here, as we talked about earlier --

KARL:  Yeah.

ISGUR:  -- his previous attorney general. Even what's going on at the Heritage Foundation certainly looks a little like that as well, where Donald Trump is about Donald Trump. That's what it means to be part of MAGA right now.

Marjorie Taylor Greene taking this on on her own probably isn't going to go well because support for Trump is about Trump, not some larger policy principle.

KARL:  What -- what do you -- what do you make of that, Reince? Because it's Marjorie Taylor Greene -- Lauren Boebert was actually brought over to the White House, sat down in the Situation Room with the FBI director and the attorney general, got a call directly from President Trump asking her to take her name off that petition.

And she -- I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert were two of the most MAGA of the MAGA crowd.

I mean, what do you make of them standing up to Trump?

PRIEBUS:  Well, I think they -- they agree that the file should be released, and they're not bending on it. I think some of these folks actually believe that they're bigger than they actually are. And I also think that the reality is --

ISGUR:  Or is Donald Trump already a lame duck?

PRIEBUS:  No, no, I don't think so at all. I think Donald Trump's in full control of the Republican Party, and he will be -- and he will be free --

ISGUR:  It’s funny. This has happened after the election.

PRIEBUS:  I didn't interrupt you when you were talking.

KARL:  Yeah.

PRIEBUS:  So, when Donald Trump is in full control, but these guys -- division is profit in America. And if you're dividing and you have money that you make and you get clicks online and you’re fundraising -- Marjorie Taylor Greene is one of the biggest fundraisers in the Republican Party.

SHAKIR:  Next to Donald Trump.

PRIEBUS:  But she's actually -- yeah, of course, because he is president of the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  Wait, wait. I've got to -- I've got a --

PRIEBUS:  But to be clear -- to be clear --

SHAKIR:  Yeah.

KARL:  Yeah.

PRIEBUS:  What -- what I think what we should be talking about, as Donna did, is number one, the victims.

KARL:  Yeah.

PRIEBUS:  I don't think there should be special treatment for the elite, but I think that there should be a process in place for protecting victims as well that don't want their names released. And you

KARL:  OK. So -- so, I want to -- I want to --

PRIEBUS:  And there should be a panel of judges (ph).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL:  I want to move on -- I want to move on to another, like, another big story, which is the military movements around Venezuela and President Trump saying he has made a decision about further military action on Venezuela. We don't know what the decision is.

This harking back to something that I had reported on back, something that happened in his first term, the first year of his first term, take a look at this. This is something from my book, "Front Row at the Trump Show". During one meeting in the fall of 2017 on the deteriorating situation in Venezuela, the president demanded a war plan.

John Kelly, then Chief of Staff told then National Security Adviser, H.R. McMaster to stand down and not to pass the president's order onto the Pentagon. I mean, this was a -- I thought this was a crazy story back then. I was almost --

BRAZILE:  Yeah.

KARL:  It's too surprising to put in the book, but that the president was demanding a war plan for Venezuela. That was eight years ago and now, he's actually doing it.

BRAZILE:  Well, look, the USS Gerald Ford has moved closer to the region. Secretary -- Defense Secretary Hegseth said that it is called Operation Southern Spear. There's more there than the American people know, clearly, members of Congress don't know what's going on. Is it about regime change or is it stopping the so-called chemical weapons, fentanyl from crossing over? We don't know because the president has not really communicated. He may have done more internally, but we don't know what the hell he's up to.

SHAKIR:  Nobel -- the Nobel Peace Prize loving, wanting Donald Trump is now metastasizing a war unnecessarily with Venezuela. You saw the General, who was leading the strikes against some of these boats, resign because he said --

(CROSSTALK)

SHAKIR:  -- did not feel there was merit to what was going on. And you have the president now metastasizing conflict, and the question has to be for much of the American public, why? Why is this going on? One of the reasons I would humbly suggest, Chris Murphy was mentioning, is that there's a distraction game at play that we need people to focus on something else. He likes to find bogeymen to combat.

KARL:  Are Republican voters going to like the idea if he actually takes this -- I mean, he is already bombing the boats. But if it goes further and bomb land targets in Venezuela?

ISGUR:  I do think it's very different taking out these boats than it is obviously starting a land war in Venezuela. Again, it goes to what is MAGA? Is it Trump or is it the principles that people thought they were voting for where he said he has ended all of these wars? You know, we're going to have to take one number away if he starts one, certainly.

KARL:  And back then, he had John Kelly and H.R. McMaster arguing against it. There's nobody arguing with him now.

PRIEBUS:  Yeah, but I -- my personal view is, I hardly doubt there's going to be a land invasion of Venezuela, so just, I hold your -- hold your fire on that.

KARL:  All right, Reince. Up next, Filmmaker Ken Burns brings the American Revolution to life in his latest project. He joins me when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: From baseball to the Civil War, documentary filmmaker Ken Burns has highlighted the stories that have bound our nation together and tested our collective resolve.

Ahead of America's 250th birthday next year, he is now turning his attention to the story that started it all. "The American Revolution," a six-part, 12-hour epic premiering tonight on PBS.

And Ken Burns joins us right now.

Congratulations on the new documentary. I have started watching it. Just terrific. Is this -- is this your most ambitious project yet?

KEN BURNS, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: I don't know if it's the most ambitious. Vietnam was really hard. The Civil War was hard. Baseball was really hard. But I'll say this about "The American Revolution," we and my co-directors, David Schmidt and Sarah Botstein, we won't work on a more important project than this one.

KARL: And one of the things remarkable and again not unique to your work, but really comes out here, is you have tapped some of Hollywood's biggest stars to help bring to life the words of those that were there, that were part of the American founding of the Revolutionary War.

I want to play Claire Danes reading the words of Abigail Adams, something she wrote just after the Battle of Lexington in Concord. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLAIRE DANES, ACTRESS: What a scene has opened upon us. If we look back, we are amazed at what has passed. If we look forward, we must shudder at the view. Our only comfort lies in the justice of our cause. All our worldly comforts are now at stake. Our nearest and dearest connections are hazard in their lives and properties. God give them wisdom and integrity sufficient to the great cause in which they are engaged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Abigail Adams is writing as if she knows that 250 years later, we would still be reciting her words. You know, she's obviously a terrific writer. But I just get a sense in so many of the founders seem to know that they were not just engaged in an epic battle, but they were changing the course of history.

BURNS: They did, you know, and they're writing to us. They're talking to you and to me. They are saying, you know, John Adams, her husband, is saying, you know, this is something that's going to affect untold millions that are yet born. You know, this is a big deal. For the first time in human history people are not going to be under authoritarian rule, subjects, ignorant, superstitious, distracted by conspiracies, but they're going to be citizens, which is going to require a lot of responsibility.

And as Abigail fears, you know, they do have the justice of the cause, but they are up against the greatest military power on earth with the most far-flung empire on earth. How the hell are these people who have just been mowed down on Lexington Green and finally fought back at the North Bridge and conquered and harassed the British already back to Boston, how are they in April of 1775, six and a half years later at Yorktown, going to win?

And that's the story of our 12 hours. We don't have photographs. We don't have news reels. We don't have them talking to the camera. What we have are their words. What we have are the places that they transformed and what we have are groups of dedicated people who have been doing these reenactments for years and years which we collected over six or seven years of filming and every time of day of night and every season and every location

from Maine to Georgia, getting a sense of what it was like to be in that revolution.

And including everybody, not just the opaque top-down people who we think we can give you a real sense of who they were, particularly George Washington, the most important person to this thing, but also the women who are --

KARL:  Yeah.

BURNS:  -- who are hugely important keeping the resistance alive, Native Americans, Black Americans, both enslaved and free. It is a dynamic story of a revolution, but a civil war and a world war all at once. And it's the fourth World War over the prize of North America.

KARL:  And you presented it in all its complexities. Before you go, I want to bring to you something that Thomas Jefferson wrote after all of this. He wrote after Shays Rebellion, famous quote where he says, "God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Is it your sense that they believed, after spending so much time immersed in this, that they believe that this project would still be underway 250 years later?

BURNS:  Well, I think that Jefferson kind of regretted that people have used this now, his quota as a kind of an excuse for violence. He said in the Declaration itself that things shouldn't be changed for lighter transient reasons. But they did want the idea of the United States to be fluid. Remember, he does say in that document, the pursuit of happiness.

KARL:  Yeah.

BURNS:  We can debate what happiness is. They meant lifelong learning. But it's -- the key word is the pursuit, or later in the Constitution, a more perfect union. We're a nation in the process of becoming, and that's been my beat. That's what I've done for the last 50 years, is try to understand what it is about the story of the United States that is so unusual and so complicated, and has so much undertone, and yet is so inspiring.

So, the Revolution is the big bang of this universe. So, it is about the story of the expanding American promise, and that's what is so, to me, just exhilarating about diving into the American Revolution.

KARL:  Well, Ken, I wish we had another five parts and another 11 or 12 hours to go with this interview, but I am out of time. Hope to talk to you again soon. Again, congratulations on the documentary out tonight. Appreciate it very much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL:  And that's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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